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  • #61
    Re: Pex Liability

    Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
    IronRanger:

    Not to chang the subject but I can't help but notice how happy your Moose Icon seems to be. Is that a pic of one of those moose that went insane from parasites in the brain?
    Hahaha I can't remember where I found that picture but I have run into a few Moose up here while hunting that I thought were sort of insane. They remind me of Jurassic Park, they're big animals and not to be messed with. I put in for the once in a lifetime tag every year, nothing yet.

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    • #62
      Re: Pex Liability

      Originally posted by ironranger View Post
      You're worried about the industry and I'm not. I try and focus my energy on more positive things, things I have control over. I find the direction we're going to be very exciting and I enjoy trying new products and tools, reading the trade magazines etc. Some products I would never use and others I will. I don't think anyone has ever said they are better than you because they use pex or whatever. It's your choice what you want to use. Please don't knock others for their choices and please lay off the personal attacks, it's unprofessional.
      I'm trying to show you that you do have control. We all have control. We're just too lazy, uninterested or greedy to use that control.

      I'm glad you find the direction exciting, parts of it are. I am very much interested in grey water recycling, it will be the future. As far as "knocking others" I tend to think of it as hopefully enlightening others to the side effects of those choices.
      sigpic

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      • #63
        Re: Pex Liability

        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
        I think I'm guilty of all of these.


        J.C.
        Yes,we all ask for help.
        But as a daily practice when you are charging your customer for what they think is an experienced professional.
        I cannot see you as being that type of misleading kind of guy

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        • #64
          Re: Pex Liability

          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
          Rick, I know california handles licensing a bit differently than most states. Here you are either an apprentice, journeyman or Master. We don't have technicians. Presumably a journeyman has passed the exams and done the OJT to get the license.

          No doubt there are a few that are of below average intelligence and ability but the same can be said for any trade.

          IR, why should those of us that have some very real concerns for the direction the trade is going " get out " ? Would things just be ducky if we all stuffed our heads in the sand and let the manufacturers, lobbiests and industry whores run rampant? Just because you are doing well does not mean everybody else is and it certainly does not mean that we should not be voicing our opinions. Yea we know, you use Viega pex and you make 10 billion a year and all your customers worship your very presence. Let's look at it from another angle. You are over 40. You work your *** off. You work better than half of that time just to pay your insurances and taxes.
          I enjoy going back and reading older posts...theres alot of information here.

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          • #65
            Re: Pex Liability

            Your point being? If you are trying to stir things up then you are on the wrong forum. We can and will often disagree with each other. IR and I have had many heated "discussions" but in the end, though we may not come to an agreement, we are both licensed, professional, master plumbers and I have enormous respect for IR and his abilities as a plumber and a business man. I don't get down and dirty that much anymore, having made the decision to spend the rest of my time teaching and supporting plumbers and the plumbing trade. I am not beholding to any corporation and I am not afraid to speak out on issues that I feel are having a deleterious effect on the trade. I don't need the money and I don't need to do what I do but I do it anyway because I care about the trade and the direction we are heading. I am old enough to have seen first hand the steady dumbing down of the trade and the stagnation of wages for apprentices and journeymen. Agree with me or not but we are not like the other trades. The work we do directly effects the health and safety of the public. We have a responsibility to our customers and to the trade. I have just spent some time on your forum. Sadly, it is about what I expected when it could have been much much more. If trash talking fellow professionals is the cornerstone of your venture than perhaps you need to do some hard thinking. For the record, I was never in favor of your banishment but sometimes things get way out of hand and it's important to know where the line is.
            sigpic

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            • #66
              Re: Pex Liability

              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
              Your point being? If you are trying to stir things up then you are on the wrong forum. We can and will often disagree with each other. IR and I have had many heated "discussions" but in the end, though we may not come to an agreement, we are both licensed, professional, master plumbers and I have enormous respect for IR and his abilities as a plumber and a business man. I don't get down and dirty that much anymore, having made the decision to spend the rest of my time teaching and supporting plumbers and the plumbing trade. I am not beholding to any corporation and I am not afraid to speak out on issues that I feel are having a deleterious effect on the trade. I don't need the money and I don't need to do what I do but I do it anyway because I care about the trade and the direction we are heading. I am old enough to have seen first hand the steady dumbing down of the trade and the stagnation of wages for apprentices and journeymen. Agree with me or not but we are not like the other trades. The work we do directly effects the health and safety of the public. We have a responsibility to our customers and to the trade. I have just spent some time on your forum. Sadly, it is about what I expected when it could have been much much more. If trash talking fellow professionals is the cornerstone of your venture than perhaps you need to do some hard thinking. For the record, I was never in favor of your banishment but sometimes things get way out of hand and it's important to know where the line is.
              I just want a level playing field. I was slammed for saying you dont hafta be smart to be a plumber and in the post I quoted earlier you basically say the exact same......"below average intelligence". Why is it when I say the same thing its trashing talking other professionals?

              I think its not whats said that gets you upset.....its who says it and to whom they say it to.

              When you label a pipe "lazy mans pipe" and tell him hes a "sell out"...how is that not trash talking another professional?

              Lets not have two sets of standards or have certain standards for certain people. Dont try to hold me to a standard your not capable or willing to adhere to yourself.

              That was my point. I'm not starting trouble just pointing out inconsistancy in some posts.

              OH and I didn't start that pex vs rat thread to have it ran in the ground by people who choose not to use it.......but thats what happened. Go back and read it and see when it changed into...."if you use pex your lazy and a sell out"
              Last edited by TheMaster; 12-24-2010, 09:08 PM.

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              • #67
                Re: Pex Liability

                Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                I just want a level playing field. I was slammed for saying you dont hafta be smart to be a plumber and in the post I quoted earlier you basically say the exact same......"below average intelligence". Why is it when I say the same thing its trashing talking other professionals?

                You need lessons in reading comprehension. Read this again please and hopefully you will see that what you quoted is in no way similar to what you were saying.

                .Rick, I know california handles licensing a bit differently than most states. Here you are either an apprentice, journeyman or Master. We don't have technicians. Presumably a journeyman has passed the exams and done the OJT to get the license

                No doubt there are a few that are of below average intelligence and ability but the same can be said for any trade.


                I think its not whats said that gets you upset.....its who says it and to whom they say it to.

                When you label a pipe "lazy mans pipe" and tell him hes a "sell out"...how is that not trash talking another professional?

                I did not label it "lazy mans pipe" Dunbar did

                Lets not have two sets of standards or have certain standards for certain people. Dont try to hold me to a standard your not capable or willing to adhere to yourself.

                Nobody in their right mind would even consider trying to hold you to any standard

                That was my point. I'm not starting trouble just pointing out inconsistancy in some posts.

                No, you are dredging up, misinterpreting and trying to bait me into another pointless argument. TM, I could care less what you use, how you use it and on whom. You are reading too much into things. Have a glass of cheer my friend and keep an ear out for them rain deer. Don't be a naughty boy or Santa will put coal in your stocking.
                sigpic

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                • #68
                  Re: Pex Liability

                  Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                  No, you are dredging up, misinterpreting and trying to bait me into another pointless argument. TM, I could care less what you use, how you use it and on whom. You are reading too much into things. Have a glass of cheer my friend and keep an ear out for them rain deer. Don't be a naughty boy or Santa will put coal in your stocking.
                  I'm not dredging up anything nhmaster. I just dont understand what you meant by "some are below average intelligence and ability but the same can be said about every trade"

                  I know you cant be talking about "techs" because if you dont have an apprentice license,journeymans lic or a master lic. then your not in the trade...so you must have been talking about one of the 3.
                  You seem to find comfort in saying "but the same can be said about every trade"

                  Ok I'm done and I hope no one is offended.......I would just like an explaination...it seems you have a superiority complex....meaning that you feel you have earned the right to say that but i haven't

                  Ok everyone have a merry Christmas.

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                  • #69
                    Re: Pex Liability

                    Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                    I'm not dredging up anything nhmaster. I just dont understand what you meant by "some are below average intelligence and ability but the same can be said about every trade"

                    I know you cant be talking about "techs" because if you dont have an apprentice license,journeymans lic or a master lic. then your not in the trade...so you must have been talking about one of the 3.
                    You seem to find comfort in saying "but the same can be said about every trade"

                    Ok I'm done and I hope no one is offended.......I would just like an explaination...it seems you have a superiority complex....meaning that you feel you have earned the right to say that but i haven't

                    Ok everyone have a merry Christmas.
                    NH is pulling your chain MP thats how he argues he uses sarcasm to belittle any who object to his out of date views as he lives in his apprenticeship days of galvanised water pipe and cast iron and molten lead joined sewerage pipes and carn`t except these days have gone forever and he knows he cannot fight against and adapt to progress in his choosen field of plumbing and this goes for a lot of plumbers on this forum.
                    I beginning to wonder just how many actually work for themselves and is their prime source of income as it is easy to object when when it dosen`t because we know MP if you don`t adapt to the times and take every advantage then our competitors will and we will be left behind and broke and out of business.

                    Tony

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                    • #70
                      Re: Pex Liability

                      Originally posted by AFM View Post
                      NH is pulling your chain MP thats how he argues he uses sarcasm to belittle any who object to his out of date views as he lives in his apprenticeship days of galvanised water pipe and cast iron and molten lead joined sewerage pipes and carn`t except these days have gone forever and he knows he cannot fight against and adapt to progress in his choosen field of plumbing and this goes for a lot of plumbers on this forum.
                      I beginning to wonder just how many actually work for themselves and is their prime source of income as it is easy to object when when it dosen`t because we know MP if you don`t adapt to the times and take every advantage then our competitors will and we will be left behind and broke and out of business.

                      Tony
                      I understand what NHmaster is getting at.....but you cant stop progress. What I mean by progress is the progression and evolution of plumbing. It has been evolving for years and the same argument that NHmaster is presenting has been talked about for years and years. My grandfather use to say things just like that and so did some of my uncles. But the fact is after pvc came out they started to make even more money and had even more straight up "hacked" in plumbing to correct that was done by homeowners and handymen that yet made them even MORE money. With pvc the number of people that could afford a new bath .....went through the ROOF.

                      No bashing here just honest discussion on my end.

                      Its hard to get a product worth a crap unless you spend a dump load on it.......and that somtimes isn't enough and you still get a crappy product that was built to FAIL. Almost everything could be built better for a price but there comes a time when your price gets so high that you dont have enough people that can or wants to afford what your selling.
                      Last edited by TheMaster; 12-25-2010, 12:37 AM.

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                      • #71
                        Re: Pex Liability

                        I've had old people justify the use of pex because they say that if he pipe lasts 10 years it will probably outlast me........man thats heavy when you think about it......put that 85 yr olds man shoes on and walk around. Would you want to spend 5,000.00 for a copper repipe or 3500.00 for a pex repipe and take a cruise or rent a condo at the beach...... or whatever with the 1500 he saved..

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                        • #72
                          Re: Pex Liability

                          It is real easy to get stuck in a mind set and not want to change your ways. When I first moved into our valley back in 1975 I would see plumbers installing water mains in PVC. To me only gardeners installed PVC water mains so I installed copper water mains. It didn't take me to long to learn the soil here eat through a copper water main in a matter of a few years.

                          The fact that PVC was being used more and more made it more available to the unskilled. It also meant more and more jobs were going to the unskilled. However, my choice was to either continue to installing copper water mains that would get eaten up in the soil or learn to install the best PVC water mains ever installed. Boy did a sell a lot of PVC water mains after that.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                          • #73
                            Re: Pex Liability

                            Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                            I've had old people justify the use of pex because they say that if he pipe lasts 10 years it will probably outlast me........man thats heavy when you think about it......put that 85 yr olds man shoes on and walk around. Would you want to spend 5,000.00 for a copper repipe or 3500.00 for a pex repipe and take a cruise or rent a condo at the beach...... or whatever with the 1500 he saved..

                            Quality materials don't need justification do they?
                            sigpic

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                            • #74
                              Re: Pex Liability

                              Originally posted by AFM View Post
                              NH is pulling your chain MP thats how he argues he uses sarcasm to belittle any who object to his out of date views as he lives in his apprenticeship days of galvanised water pipe and cast iron and molten lead joined sewerage pipes and carn`t except these days have gone forever and he knows he cannot fight against and adapt to progress in his choosen field of plumbing and this goes for a lot of plumbers on this forum.
                              I beginning to wonder just how many actually work for themselves and is their prime source of income as it is easy to object when when it dosen`t because we know MP if you don`t adapt to the times and take every advantage then our competitors will and we will be left behind and broke and out of business.

                              Tony
                              Tony, I'm not pulling his chain at all, neither am I being sarcastic. As for being out of date I fail to see how not following the herd makes one out of date. I have installed these products, evaluated these products, SERVICED these products and concluded that for MY company, it does not make sense to got on the band wagon. Furthermore we are the largest company in the area and probably the most profitable one also. We do not compromise and that's how we got that way. Sure, we loose business to other plumbers that work cheaper and faster and that's OK because we have a strong customer base that trust's our judgment and skills. So are we ripping our customers off if we refuse to use PEX, AAV's and other similar time saving products ?

                              Aside from all that Tony, like I've said before, I don't get in the trenches anymore, I teach and if nothing else these discussions get people thinking about their decisions and the direction that those decisions drive the plumbing trade.

                              Here's why Iron Ranger and I don't go at it anymore. We had numerous discussions (arguments) here and on other forums and finally he came out and said the right thing " I use it, I like it, it works for me and my company" no justifications, no waffling just his opinion straight up. He knows it's strengths and he knows it's weakness and he's not trying to convince the world that his choice is the only choice.

                              Now if you will excuse me gent's the lead pot's just about up to temp
                              sigpic

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                              • #75
                                Re: Pex Liability

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                Quality materials don't need justification do they?
                                Sure they do. I use quaility materials and I have yet to find the perfect material thats affordable. I find problems with ALL of it.

                                I could use stainless sch 40 screw pipe......that would be the ultimate potable system here. No one uses it here because its too expensive unless your building a warship or a coca cola factory

                                I could apply these same principles to almost any other product. Stereo speakers for example. I could have bought speakers that cost twice as much because they had silver wire inside of them and no doubt they sounded good but for 5,000.00 MORE for a total of 10,000.00 I could have had "better quality" but i couldn't justify 5,000.00 extra so i could have silver wire...although I realize....."its the best"....unless you wanted GOLD and wanted to pay 50-100,000 for a set of speakers. then you would have some of the best quality speakers.
                                Last edited by TheMaster; 12-25-2010, 08:48 AM.

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