Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Starting to have doubts about T&M

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post

    i can guarantee you that a management company that knows what's up, will not agree on flat rate. a bid yes, but not a book generated price. and that would apply for a large install. the nickel and dime jobs are not flat rate.

    a competitive bid is not flat rate, but rather an educated take off of the time and material to complete a project. an extra is time and material at the pre determined hourly rate.
    A contract bid or a bid of any kind is a flat rate price to do the job. I disagree with you there, and most would.

    If you were right, then the Unions would give out T&M prices and not bids. If the Union did give out T&M prices..they wouldn't be in business very long.

    When my father started flirting with the idea of flat rate pricing, we saw the "mayo" system, and one other. When we were looking at those prices they had in the book, our eye balls went like this --------->.

    There was noway we were going to install a toilet for $1,300.00...but the books gave us a good laugh in the process.

    We came up with our own prices that are more in line with T&M prices to bridge the gap. See I think people get confused with...if you're flat rate, you're using a book to get your price...not true. While some use the book...others don't to achieve the same ball park price as you.

    Most people get paid for 8 hours of work a day. It's quite hard for a Plumber to have 8 billable hours everyday.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

      what happens when a customers pays you a lot of money and you finish in less than an hour with little material outlay. they're going to feel like this guy just charged me $200 for a 1/2hr. of work. all of a sudden that $80.00 an hour doesn't sound so bad after all

      Well if I flat rated the work at my current price a half hour job would be $85
      Or if I did a min hour it would be $125 still need some material that would cost $75 to $125 . I would have to charge $175 to $200 an hour to come up with that? Also some people are paying Lowes more than they would pay me? People pay adt $130 per hour but don't get an hourly price and Pep boys $125 is the same. I just think they hear hourly and then I am struggling to keep them interested.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

        I will tell you a line you all may thing is crazy and will never work. But till this day my father uses it and to my surprise the people agree.

        When they bulk at our rates saying that is to expensive, my father's reply is. "That is cheap." Thats it that is all he says and 90% of the time the people pause and then agree with him.

        Now what I do is I quote them the base price, for example if they call for a clogged lav sink or tub I tell them its $185 for the first half hour, if it takes longer then its $80 per half hour there after. If they call for a main line or a kitchen sink line I quote them $265 for the first hour if it takes longer it will be $80 per half our. If they ask how long a job like that will take I explain to them a "normal" job will take half hour to an hour, but will take longer if we run into abnormal problems like heavy tree roots, or female products, paper towels and such.

        I hope this helps some.
        Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
        A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
        Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
        Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

          Originally posted by Clipper City Plumber View Post
          what do you do to get the 80 calls ?
          Westcoast plumbing has the best "Marketing Coordinator" money can buy.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

            I'm surprised that your customers are asking for flat rate pricing. Our markets are not that far apart. Although your coverage is much larger than my 10 square mile service area. Maybe they want numbers up front because you are new?
            I can't remember the last time someone wanted a flat rate other than a water heater or sewer/camera work.

            Our labor rates are much higher than yours and we stay busy year round.. in my opinion you are selling yourself short.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

              Originally posted by plumberscrack View Post
              I'm surprised that your customers are asking for flat rate pricing. Our markets are not that far apart. Although your coverage is much larger than my 10 square mile service area. Maybe they want numbers up front because you are new?
              I can't remember the last time someone wanted a flat rate other than a water heater or sewer/camera work.

              Our labor rates are much higher than yours and we stay busy year round.. in my opinion you are selling yourself short.
              Starting out fresh myself over the last two years I'm going to have to agree.
              I had to eat pounds of crap to develop appreciative clientel.
              Just talked to Westcoast yesterday about how to end a phone call quickly without letting a tire kicker know how disgusted I was.

              After a half hour He said "I'll call you right back"(with his eastern accent).
              I thought to myself two things.
              First,he was not going to call back.I'm too cheap,yet that will not stop him from finding someone to do the job to do the job for the price HE has figured he is going to pay.
              Second,two seconds after I hung up I had formatted a shpeel in my head letting him know I was not the idiot he was looking for.
              He did not call back.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                A contract bid or a bid of any kind is a flat rate price to do the job. I disagree with you there, and most would.

                If you were right, then the Unions would give out T&M prices and not bids. If the Union did give out T&M prices..they wouldn't be in business very long.
                15 years of new construction and 15 years of competitive bids. a bid is not the same as flat rate. if it was then we wouldn't have had a full time estimator who would spend anywhere from a week to several months bidding a job.

                if it was as simple as looking in a book to come up with a price, he could have cranked up bids daily and we would have not been in business since the 40's-93 as a union shop. and when we did an extra, it was broken down as time and material. unless it was a large extra, then that would have been a bid based on time and material.

                unless you're making up numbers, flat rate has to be based on material cost and labor cost with the labor cost including all your indirect cost of doing business. problem is you never reveal your hourly cost to the customer. so therefore if it's a task that's not in the book, how do you figure the job when it's not in there? customer needs you for an hour of miscellaneous work with no material. do you give them an hourly rate or do you give them an estimate for every task based on the hour they need you for?



                i get called out on jobs for other contractors on a regular basis, and unless it's a contract camera or trenchless job, it's an hourly time and material job. other contractor and management companies don't play the flat rate game. they're way too sharp to fall for it.

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                  I put on a Sombrero and a Thong on Saturdays & hand out cards at grocery stores.


                  J.C.
                  pics where are the pics of that
                  SMELLS LIKE $$$$$$ TO ME

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                    When I first started out I was t&m and it sucked, I'll never go there again. We all have our own methods and if they work for you and you're happy then I see no problem. There isn't a right or a wrong way.
                    This isn't rocket science, it's plumbing. It's not that hard. I quote every job I do up front. Call it flat rate or call it whatever you want. My customers expect to know the cost of the job before I start.
                    As someone else stated earlier, the longer you do this the more experienced you are and the quicker you get your jobs done. I'll toot my own horn, I'm fast, very fast. So why should I be penalized for this?
                    I did a pex re-pipe last week, gave them the price up front, $2,200.00, I had it done by 2:30. I'm not one to sit around trying to milk any job if I was t&m, aint going to happen. I was happy, the customer was happy (they are a regular customer) and I've already gotten another re-pipe scheduled for their neighbor for next week for the same price. I'm not in this to kiss my customers back side or worry about what they think. If they want to use my professional services then they will pay what it's worth, no exceptions. I'm in business for ME, not for them.
                    When I first started my own business many years ago I was given some advice from an old timer and I've never forgotten it. He said don't ever give it away. Sound advice for sure.

                    By the way NHMaster, my taxes and insurance bills for the entire year can easily be paid with maybe a couple of weeks earnings. If you're working half your time just to pay these bills then by all means, get out.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                      Bidding on a construction job everything is layed out in black and white on the plans.

                      In service plumbing you have now idea what cute little surprises are going to raise their ugly little head as soon as you walk in the door.

                      I'm getting a feel for what the people want.I am finding out it has to do with me and how I present "The Package".Some customers want the price up front and fast so we can both move on.
                      Most are made happy with an estimated up front price based on my hourly rate.

                      For the record...
                      My hands are getting very sore and the wages are still too cheap.Not a whole lot going in the bank.Things are so much better now that I know people a little more.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                        T&M = Being paid for work accomplished at a fair price.
                        Flat Rate = Being paid for what might go wrong whether it does or not.

                        Brand yourself. Generate trust. Your work matters but WHO you are matters more.

                        If you must give an estimate (and like Rick, I rarely have to), I would recommend not quoting "labor" unless it is in the context of "insurance, compliance fees, labor costs, overhead, +25% profit (or whatever your profit margin is) is $135/hr (or whatever) and that particular job usually requires 1.5 hrs to complete. Material is extra."

                        Does the $80/hr rate you are quoting come from your actual numbers you have put to paper or are you just "calling around" to see what every one else is charging. You must know YOUR costs.

                        Don't overprice your parts. With the internet and big box stores, many people know the cost of items and balk when you double or triple the prices. A fair profit margin goes over much better. Also, use better parts than can be generally picked up by the customer. Let them know they cost more but YOU won't settle for inferior products for YOUR customers.
                        Let them supply their own parts whenever they want to but offer something better.

                        Generally, single person shops must charge more than larger concerns since they have only one truck to pay the overhead with and in many cases your overhead will probably be more anyway.

                        There is not a "one size fits all" system either. Experiment with what works best for you.

                        Bottom line, be proud of your work and don't sell yourself cheap, know your costs, be fair in your profit margins. Get rich steady.

                        The preceding in no way endorses a particular system or scheme. Past history does not necessarily indicate future results. Consult your plumbing professional.
                        "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                          Originally posted by post plumber View Post
                          pics where are the pics of that
                          I've got the arrest pictures around here somewhere. Hmmm....


                          J.C.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                            the 80 dollars an hour is based on an attempt to generate a customer base and make money on quality of work. Over the weekend I calculated the cost of the business and came up with $110 per hour after discounting lowes work from the cost of the company.this however does not include a profit% . And I don't know how to figure for projected material sales. My idea of to go or not to go flat rate is to develop a quick list of common jobs with average times but don't think $110 will fly if I am having difficultly with $80. I can't see $30 bucks killing any one however what effect will it have on the company and lost sales in another 7 months?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                              15 years of new construction and 15 years of competitive bids. a bid is not the same as flat rate. th no material. do you give them an hourly rate or do you give them an estimate for every task based on the hour they need you for?
                              Rick I passionately disagree with your definition between flat and giving a bid. But I'm allowed to disagree, as we both look at it differently, which makes the world turn.

                              My point is this...I'm not saying my pricing is right and yours is wrong. What I am saying is, what works for YOU does not work for ME.

                              1 Plumber in the entire nation does not set the pricing guidelines for the rest of the Plumbing Industry. If someone is higher then you or me..it doesn't mean the consumer is being ripped off, as I think it's very unfair to insinuate that, and sends a very bad message.

                              I agree with you that there are companies (Plumbing,electrical,Carpentry..etc) that pray on the consumer, and there is nothing we both can do about it, and those people should be taken out of the equation.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                                You know what's funny about this thread? One could easily tell who is on what side of the fence, by the "thanks" they are leaving.

                                Maybe we should have a scene right out of "Brave Heart" with the T&M guys on one side and the flat rate guys on the other.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X