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Starting to have doubts about T&M

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  • #46
    Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

    flux, if you're going to quote me, i would appreciate a quote that has not been manipulated and misspelled. go back and read my quote and the then read what you attempted to copy and paste.

    basically what i take from every flat rate discussion is that they are too embarrassed to actually give a figure of their hourly wages. not 1 company will discuss prices. prices are in the book and hourly labor wages don't apply.

    what's so secretive about telling the customer what you really charge them.

    what amazes me is that flat rate is typically 2 to 3 times more expensive than hourly.

    there can't possibly be a price for every job situation. there has to be an hourly figure you base your time is worth. why is it as mysterious as a magician not showing how they do magic?

    rick.
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

      Originally posted by Clipper City Plumber View Post
      the 80 dollars an hour is based on an attempt to generate a customer base and make money on quality of work. Over the weekend I calculated the cost of the business and came up with $110 per hour after discounting lowes work from the cost of the company.this however does not include a profit% . And I don't know how to figure for projected material sales. My idea of to go or not to go flat rate is to develop a quick list of common jobs with average times but don't think $110 will fly if I am having difficultly with $80. I can't see $30 bucks killing any one however what effect will it have on the company and lost sales in another 7 months?
      Personally..you stating that you work in the "Ghetto" is part of your problem right there.

      You're fighting a losing battle which is tough to overcome imo. Yes those people need to have their Plumbing fixed as well..but you also need to be paid for bringing your shop to them.

      If you can't move out of the area, I would go further in my coverage area then.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

        Well I am going to try a new advertising thing next month just hope it works and is not just another waste of good money.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

          Originally posted by Clipper City Plumber View Post
          Flat rate at $80 per hour . The other shops out here are charging $130 to $250 per hour at a flat rate. And charging more time than necessary and taking on 110% for material . I am thinking what I need is a minimum hour block . instead of driving for an hour waiting 15 min. for a customer to get home change out a pilot assembly for P.V. in 40 min and only get $99.40 is going to really work. I guess the bigger problem may be getting the work if I did six of these I d be ok with it.
          Trust me I know where you are coming from. I charge hourly for some thing flat price on others depends. Example. I get call to snake a sewer .I tell the customer I cannot give you a price to snake . I don't know what I am going to run into. Typically figure a couple hours + $x for the equipment fee. Sometimes I feel I am cheating myself. Because co. x charges say $500 to snake a sewere whether they are there an hour or 2 . They have covered their bases BUT the customer ends up paying almost double of what I charge.. So bottom line is the customer is getting a deal from me compared to a flat rate co.even if it takes say 3 hrs. instead of 2 when it comes to certain things. Average sewer snake job $300 ..Like I mentioned co.x over $500.
          Trust me no customer wants to hear T&M .They want a price a lot of times . Give em' a price if they want a price but charge your reg. rates to cover all the bases.. If I cannot do it for what THEY want to pay they can call someone else..It is always better for someone else to loose money than me.
          ''Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Benjamin Franklin

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          • #50
            Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

            I do wonder about other stuff like not having the truck lettered have any effect. Not having a full stock ready to go like if I not being able to do extra work right on the spot and drop the old line well I ll have to come back for that and don't have some price for them . It's like the same set of problems before I get there and after I knock out the initial job.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              flux, if you're going to quote me, i would appreciate a quote that has not been manipulated and misspelled. go back and read my quote and the then read what you attempted to copy and paste.

              basically what i take from every flat rate discussion is that they are too embarrassed to actually give a figure of their hourly wages. not 1 company will discuss prices. prices are in the book and hourly labor wages don't apply.

              what's so secretive about telling the customer what you really charge them.

              what amazes me is that flat rate is typically 2 to 3 times more expensive than hourly.

              there can't possibly be a price for every job situation. there has to be an hourly figure you base your time is worth. why is it as mysterious as a magician not showing how they do magic?

              rick.
              Rick - Calm down Chief! There is no reason to puff your chest out and get all mad. I didn't "manipulate" you...it's called I used the back button key in your post so I could respond directly to you. I did it too fast and messed up..trust me, if I wanted to put words in your mouth...I would.

              Why is it that you're the only guy in this thread getting mad over a difference of opinion? Nobody else here is getting mad except you, and both sides have expressed their opinion.

              Calling out other Plumbers for what you think is "over priced" is childish and very unprofessional on your part. You are flirting with and very borderline of "slandering" other Professional Plumbing Contractors that are here.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                RICK!!!
                What are you doing?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                  Originally posted by Flux View Post
                  Rick - Calm down Chief! There is no reason to puff your chest out and get all mad. I didn't "manipulate" you...it's called I used the back button key in your post so I could respond directly to you. I did it too fast and messed up..trust me, if I wanted to put words in your mouth...I would.

                  then go back and fix your misspelling and cut and paste that's not correct. why not just quote the entire post and then highlight the area of concern? why change the spelling and the sentence they were originally in?

                  Why is it that you're the only guy in this thread getting mad over a difference of opinion? Nobody else here is getting mad except you, and both sides have expressed their opinion.

                  Calling out other Plumbers for what you think is "over priced" is childish and very unprofessional on your part. You are flirting with and very borderline of "slandering" other Professional Plumbing Contractors that are here.
                  when i have dozens of flat rate bids the customers have shared and copied for me, it's not slander, it's robbery. i've even posted some of them over the years on the forum.

                  how do you or any other flat rate plumber establish an hourly rate when the customer ask for an hour of time to walk the job. there has got to be an hourly figure that is never ever revealed. it's like magic is everything you do have a book price? is there not 1 job that is an hourly figure if you have no idea what's involved?

                  i make a good living at what i do. if i hid behind a book i would have to start over with customers that know no better. 1500 customers is a lot to loose.

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                    We had hourly prices like that in the book and they all had a half hour trip charge add to them. Next to every item in the book the minuets billed for that task were listed . It just listed them in small print so you knew if this price would work or not which usually never did. If questions were asked how much does this all break down you were trained to reply that its flat rate and could not give a break down. But any guy that does flat rate dam well knows what the rate per hour is . One thing I have wondered is what about with estimates real estimates like digging jobs do you break down the cost and adjust if the job goes quicker or add more money if it takes longer.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                      Check this out http://www.bamfordplumbingandheating.net/index.html this is the page this company has made up for me . This will be were people will be sent if and that is a big IF they click on the sponsored link on google. $1,500 a month this cost But I have put all the other internet advertisers on hold for a month to see how this works . This may get me out of the "Free" estimate rut at least I hope so.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                        when i have dozens of flat rate bids the customers have shared and copied for me, it's not slander, it's robbery. i've even posted some of them over the years on the forum.

                        how do you or any other flat rate plumber establish an hourly rate when the customer ask for an hour of time to walk the job. there has got to be an hourly figure that is never ever revealed. it's like magic is everything you do have a book price? is there not 1 job that is an hourly figure if you have no idea what's involved?

                        i make a good living at what i do. if i hid behind a book i would have to start over with customers that know no better. 1500 customers is a lot to loose.

                        rick.
                        Rick - For you being such a popular member of this forum, who has a lot of expertise in many area's of our field (especially drain cleaning), I lost some respect for you for the stance you're taking. You're better then that, but you're letting your ego get in the way.

                        It is slander when you're taking something "second hand" and spreading it word of mouth, when you had no direct dealings with the company in question. Slander is a "Malicious intent" and that's exactly what you're doing.

                        You're using "generalizations" and grouping flat rate contractors as "robbers" which isn't fair, and it's down right "unprofessional" and wrong for someone to do that.

                        As far this misquote..I don't know how to write inside a quote and post it, and I felt no need to quote your entire message.

                        You don't have to like flat rate..nobody here is saying you do. But to take the stance you're taking right now...I think you should push yourself away from the keyboard and take some deep breaths, before you have a heart attack.

                        Personally I think you owe an apology for your generalizations that you have made against flat rate Contractors.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                          Originally posted by Clipper City Plumber View Post
                          Check this out http://www.bamfordplumbingandheating.net/index.html this is the page this company has made up for me . This will be were people will be sent if and that is a big IF they click on the sponsored link on google. $1,500 a month this cost But I have put all the other internet advertisers on hold for a month to see how this works . This may get me out of the "Free" estimate rut at least I hope so.
                          Hold on a second C.C.
                          Need to slow down and think here.I have been being contacted by every Tom,Dick,Harry and Sharon.
                          Wanting me to pump my hard earned money into their magic program to get me more work.

                          A few months back I was getting four phone calls a day from people wanting to "Enhance" my internet(google) footprint.Almost overnight they all stopped.

                          Who else do you know that has had good luck with this investment your looking into.Money is too hard to earn to throw at a possible snake oil salesman.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                            Better get a tighter grip on that slip nut.

                            Dem puppies can be a little mischievious if you don't crank-em AWL the way down.
                            Also,for my big Torque down pose..I'll show-em a bunch of tongue out the corner of my mouth.




                            Like Rick I can't Help Myself
                            Yours truely,
                            Adam



                            Site looks good

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                              I guess I don't fit in either category then. I don't charge by the hour and I never quote an hourly rate, never. I charge by the job, period.
                              I consider myself a "plumbing contractor", each job I do is a contract, verbally or written.
                              The reason I don't quote or charge by the hour is because on a very large number of service calls I do I'm not there for more than 15 minutes. I've learned over the years that if I charge by the hour and quote an hourly charge (which I did at one time) sometimes customers get mad and think I'm ripping them off because I was only there for 15 minutes.

                              Now when I give the the price up front there is no longer the issue, it never comes up. I'm happy, the customer is happy, we're all happy!

                              Actually the way I do it is very similar to t&m, the difference is I don't quote my hourly rate.

                              Also, quoting the job up front does not mean I have to stick to that price if I encounter another problem. I cover my arse all the time and tell my customers it will be this amount of dollars BUT if this happens, and it could, we'll have to talk again and there will be additional charges.

                              I feel that in the last 23 plus years of doing my job I've learned how to take the "risk factor" out of the game.

                              I don't use flat rate books or manuals, never have. I know what my minimum is, I add parts and markup. It's so simple even a caveman could do it!

                              I'm in no way saying my way is better or your way is better. Whatever works for you is best. I also agree there is no reason for personal attacks or telling others they are ripping customers off. We're all in this game together, brothers remember?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Starting to have doubts about T&M

                                Originally posted by Clipper City Plumber View Post
                                I do wonder about other stuff like not having the truck lettered have any effect. Not having a full stock ready to go like if I not being able to do extra work right on the spot and drop the old line well I ll have to come back for that and don't have some price for them . It's like the same set of problems before I get there and after I knock out the initial job.
                                I wish I did not have my truck lettered for one reason. Now I have to pay at the dump..But in this business unless you are just doing new construction and are on the same job site every day I would letter my truck. Come up with a unique logo that sets you apart from the others.. An unlettered truck just looks unprofessional and fly by night and in most jurisdictions it is illegal not to post your reg. #'s on your truck. Again my .02 Let's face it we will never have everything we need on our trucks. Sometimes you just have to get done what you were called for . Then if they need extras done and you don't have the material I have no problem telling them that I will have to come back . Or if I have other work scheduled for the day I will be back. I give them a quote on the fly. Don't sweat it . Sometimes you just have to wing it ..If they scoff at the price I'll tell em' to call me when they are ready to have it done and see ya'
                                ''Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Benjamin Franklin

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