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  • Re: PEX Vs RAT

    Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
    So there is no easy or safe way to thaw pex is what you are saying. So NHMaster's post about having to bring in salamander heaters in the house for several hours and even days to thaw the piping out.

    I do not see the advantage to pex then when it comes to freezing. I can hook up a thawer to metal pipe and have the water flowing in most cases 15 minutes, longer runs take about an hour.
    I dunno I've never heard of any freezing in a house here that has heat on. The ones that did freeze solid didn't have heat......vaccant...it thawed out the next day and is working fine. Copper cant do that.

    I dont plumb according to other plumbers locations weather conditions....only mine.

    SO.....what about NHMASTERS posts about having to bring in salamanders??????????????? I missed that point....I admit it.
    Last edited by TheMaster; 12-23-2010, 04:21 PM.

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    • Re: PEX Vs RAT

      Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
      I dunno I've never heard of any freezing in a house here that has heat on. The ones that did freeze solid didn't have heat......vaccant...it thawed out the next day and is working fine. Copper cant do that.

      I dont plumb according to other plumbers locations weather conditions....only mine.
      What location is that?
      Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
      Ron's Facebook
      A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
      Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
      Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

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      • Re: PEX Vs RAT

        Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
        I wonder when you sell your customers on pex that you explain to them that it may be freeze burst resistant, but when it freezes, that it can take hours or days to thaw out.
        I tell them to keep the heat in the house on.....or the water in the pex pipe will freeze.....and the toilets will freeze and so will everything else that can freeze.

        I tell them that if they have copper and they fail to turn the heat on it WILL freeze and break......with pex it MIGHT freeze and break. Have heat or winterize the home....thats the rule down here.

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        • Re: PEX Vs RAT

          Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
          What location is that?
          Northwest Fl.

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          • Re: PEX Vs RAT

            Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
            Northwest Fl.
            Oh I thought you where down in Mobile Alabama. Guess I thought wrong.
            Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
            Ron's Facebook
            A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
            Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
            Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

            Comment


            • Re: PEX Vs RAT

              Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
              Oh I thought you where down in Mobile Alabama. Guess I thought wrong.
              Anymore questions? I like educating people.

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              • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                I froze some 3/4" wirsbo in the freezer once. Was in there for close to a year, thawed out with no problems when I took it out.


                Pex is a PITA to thaw though on a large scale. Had some wirsbo freeze once on a new construction home, and there was no way to thaw it out. I could off used a heat gun, but that would have taken days. The tile guys where piss cause they could tile for a few days until it thaw out.
                Will Rogers Plumbing
                Moore, Oklahoma
                (
                405) 323-2852

                "Your Solution for Any Sewer and Drain Cleaning Needs"

                "We Unclog Drains That Others Can't"



                www.willrogersplumbing.com
                http://willrogersplumbing.com/?page_id=8

                "Oklahoma's Favorite Plumbers!"

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                • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                  Originally posted by Will Rogers Plumbing View Post
                  I froze some 3/4" wirsbo in the freezer once. Was in there for close to a year, thawed out with no problems when I took it out.


                  Pex is a PITA to thaw though on a large scale. Had some wirsbo freeze once on a new construction home, and there was no way to thaw it out. I could off used a heat gun, but that would have taken days. The tile guys where piss cause they could tile for a few days until it thaw out.
                  You can lay tile in a house when its cold enough to freeze the pipes? The home didn't have heat??? I'm soooo glad it doesn't get that cold here.

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                  • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                    Most of the damage to the pipes was above the garage. The tile guys bring there own heaters with them, they just didn't have water for cutting tile, mixing thinset etc.
                    Will Rogers Plumbing
                    Moore, Oklahoma
                    (
                    405) 323-2852

                    "Your Solution for Any Sewer and Drain Cleaning Needs"

                    "We Unclog Drains That Others Can't"



                    www.willrogersplumbing.com
                    http://willrogersplumbing.com/?page_id=8

                    "Oklahoma's Favorite Plumbers!"

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                    • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                      Originally posted by Will Rogers Plumbing View Post
                      Most of the damage to the pipes was above the garage. The tile guys bring there own heaters with them, they just didn't have water for cutting tile, mixing thinset etc.
                      I always waited to install finish materials until after the HVAC is operating. I couldn't do the on the last house so I bought 1500 watt electric heaters for every room and left them running for 3 or 4 days. Warmed it up nice and toasty after about 5 or 6 hours. Lows in the 30's and highs in the 40's...man it was cold

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                      • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                        Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                        Ok post up some pics of pex that has frozen and burst. I'd like to see it.....because I have yet to see any down here. Last year was the coldest year on record I believe here......I only had calls for copper and cpvc that burst. There are miles and miles of pex it in attics here.

                        I've pumped up some pex to 100psi with a shut off valve on it...turned the valve off and threw it in the freezer for a month.....thawed it out and it still was holding pressure. You could never do that with copper. Installing pex fittings close together will not allow the pex to expand and it WILL split when frozen.
                        You are correct in that statement TM.
                        The magic # is having fittings between 2 and 7 inches apart will make PEX burst from freezing. The ice plug forms first at the 2 fittings then freezes towards the middle bursting the PEX.

                        This was documented in a PEX Freezing Study done several years back...

                        There was some PEX that was found to have no resistance to damage from freezing this was the PEX-AL-PEX variety,

                        411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

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                        • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                          Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                          My question still stands, how do you thaw pex?

                          As NHMaster pointed out with metal pipes we hook up a pipe thawer and get the water flowing, and repair any splits as needed. With pex I do not see a quick or safe way of thawing the pipe.


                          There is no way to properly thaw out lazy mans pipe. They (plumbers using it) don't give a flying **** in the first place anyway, the very reason they're using it. String it like a garden hose across the joists and I'm outta here!


                          In some of the cases in the Northern Kentucky area where this pipe freezes, it is usually in newer homes where insulation wasn't enough to keep it from freezing, or air movement in open cavities in vaulted ceilings, or cantilevers where it has to be insulated where the plumbing was installed in a home.

                          We're talking deep freezes.


                          But when this happens, there's no point of origin to actually figure out "where" if only a part of the house is affected, especially homes that are completely drywalled on both upper and lower levels, including the garage.

                          So in that turn of events,

                          The customer wants to "pay" for the cure, and cure is telling them you don't know and you don't know where to start, because there's no leak to say yes; it's right there.

                          So when PEX freezes, unless you can figure out exactly where it is, all you can tell them is to turn up the heat sky high and wait for it to thaw out. That's lazy mans pipe for ya.


                          Perfect example of where plastic piping systems fail on the water distribution side of the equation:


                          Customer contacts me, no water in the home.

                          First thing I do, I tell them to open every single faucet in the home. 45 minutes later, I have dripping but that's because of drain down (I'm sure) and I was hoping I was getting it from the main trying to push past ice.

                          The reality of this 180' foot main water line was no water to the home for the next 14 days.

                          Water district came out and heated the meter pit for 45 minutes, no result. The water line had froze somewhere underground or near the house where it would not give location where it was frozen at, and the customers suffered without.

                          Customer had some in home adult care, had to be moved to another location. Customer ended up spending A hundred dollars plus buying gallon water from the grocery store during that entire time, just to flush toilets and minor cooking.

                          Now, whenever it gets cold, like it has been in the past couple weeks, these people now have to WASTE water by keeping the faucets on constantly to not have a repeat occurrence.

                          Sad, all because the F**King Retard plumber who saved a buck running plastic piping saved money on the bid doing the new construction work.

                          A half a month without water. I felt bad just charging that day for an hour and a half, trying everything with no result to get it to open up.

                          If it was metallic or copper piping, a thaw machine would of had the exact location and bingo; job done, money spent and away you go, customer happy.


                          The majority of the time with plastic systems, you're telling people to overheat the area you "think" is the location, and "GOOD LUCK" when it opens.

                          It won't be the last retard that makes me money, certainly not the first.
                          Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                          • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                            Originally posted by Redwood View Post
                            You are correct in that statement TM.
                            The magic # is having fittings between 2 and 7 inches apart will make PEX burst from freezing. The ice plug forms first at the 2 fittings then freezes towards the middle bursting the PEX.

                            This was documented in a PEX Freezing Study done several years back...

                            There was some PEX that was found to have no resistance to damage from freezing this was the PEX-AL-PEX variety,




                            They've even went great lengths with the manufactures to instruct installers to avoid short segment installations for this very reason.

                            In longer lengths, it holds up well, like in home run systems. But if a house is cold and where it freezes there is short segments of this piping, it's going to pop.

                            "I can't believe it! They said this **** is supposed to hold up in the cold!" - Henry Homeowner
                            Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                            • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                              Its not for example rehaus fault that the owner let it freeze just like it wouldn't be american standards fault if my toilet froze and broke.

                              It is not a copper pipes fault it will freeze and break.....thats what its suppose to do. It is the owners responsibility to protect their property.

                              Thats whats wrong with America,no one wants to accept responsilbility for their own stupidity.

                              My customer today understood fully what I was installing. he picked it up and flexed it and tried to pull the fittings off of it. he said it reminded him of hydraulic systems he built at the mill except its plastic. He loved it. I love it. Another satisfied customer.

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                              • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                                So 21 pages later and far as I can tell nobody has changed their opinions of the product but it was fun wasn't it?

                                I did learn a new term from dunbar though "lazy man's piping" I like that. Think I may write an article for P&M with that title. Think they'll publish it
                                Not likely seeing as how Viega is one of their major sponsors, which, if you think about that is why and how we got here in the first place isn't it. Industry whores greasing palms to push inferior products on a a public all too willing to pay less and get less.
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