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  • Re: PEX Vs RAT

    [QUOTE=TheMaster;322158]Dunbar keeps saying it takes skill to run copper. I say a monkey can do it. Its more science than skill. I say I could teach a 5 year old to solder. I already did teach an 8yr old.

    This has nothing to do with plumbing theory IMO. I realize plumbing theory is not learned overnight but soldering doesn't even take an hour to learn the principles and then its monkey work.[/QUOTE]

    Just curious, what part of what you do isn't "monkey work" in your opinion?

    Thanks.


    J.C.

    Comment


    • Re: PEX Vs RAT

      Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
      Dunbar keeps saying it takes skill to run copper. I say a monkey can do it. Its more science than skill. I say I could teach a 5 year old to solder. I already did teach an 8yr old.

      This has nothing to do with plumbing theory IMO. I realize plumbing theory is not learned overnight but soldering doesn't even take an hour to learn the principles and then its monkey work.
      Again you are talking about the bare minimums of knowledge of pipe assembly. Could an 8-year old install a home full of copper or run a 2" processing line across the ceiling of a warehouse. You could say the same for PEX in that anyone could teach an 8-year old to make a joint but that does not make them a plumber.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • Re: PEX Vs RAT

        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
        You are beginning to give the appearance of someone that just wants to argue rather than establish your opinion. That undermines your character.

        Most have given there opinions, stances, and reasons. Noone will ever totally agree with you or you with them on anything.

        No reason to argue just to argue.


        J.C.
        I think I have made valid points in every post i've made and given example to back up those points.

        I dont appreciated being refered to as lazy because I use pex. I dont appreciate being called a "sell out" because I use pex.

        Just because they cant use a material with success doesn't mean its a free for all on anyone who uses pex. Simple as that.

        Since when did defending yourself become the wrong thing to do?

        Comment


        • Re: PEX Vs RAT

          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
          Again you are talking about the bare minimums of knowledge of pipe assembly. Could an 8-year old install a home full of copper or run a 2" processing line across the ceiling of a warehouse. You could say the same for PEX in that anyone could teach an 8-year old to make a joint but that does not make them a plumber.

          Mark
          Oh I agree fully and just because you can run copper doesn't make you a plumber either. Your making the same point I'm making.

          And just because you run pex doesn't make you lazy and it doesn't make you a sell out and it doesn't make you a crappy plumber....like some are trying to make it sound.

          Comment


          • Re: PEX Vs RAT

            Originally posted by TheMaster View Post

            Since when did defending yourself become the wrong thing to do?
            When it becomes obsesive.

            Look at your posts

            On how many threads

            Towards how many members

            In how much time.

            I'm not cool with it

            Comment


            • Re: PEX Vs RAT

              There have been way too many attacks against way too many people and the rational discussion is being lost. Let's get back on track and keep it civil or lose all of the information.

              Mark
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                I think I have made valid points in every post i've made and given example to back up those points.

                I dont appreciated being refered to as lazy because I use pex. I dont appreciate being called a "sell out" because I use pex.

                Just because they cant use a material with success doesn't mean its a free for all on anyone who uses pex. Simple as that.

                Since when did defending yourself become the wrong thing to do?
                It is not.

                Making more personal statements towards some removes focus from your position and degrades your defense though.

                I myself do what it takes to be as profitable & hopefully ethical as possible. I've installed PEX, copper, CPVC. Just depends on what's going on.

                Some that preach the copper gospel would starve in new construction. We can all say that it's because this guy or that guy wants to do it the easy way with PEX, CPVC, or whatever else.

                Maybe it's everybody elses fault that only uses copper. They should have stuck to threading galvanized and brass for water distribution. Right? That takes more skill. No? You have completely destroyed the trade and "sold out" because you only use copper. I see the same people that only want to use copper and say the less skilled distribution is destroying the trade put in PVC every single time. Go put in CI with lead along with screw pipe and save the trade. Right? The same logic must apply. Can't have one without the other.

                It's very easy to have a 70 year old established business and expound on how you will never use this or that product & charge the most while judging others doing what it takes to survive.

                I dare you to take the exact same model you use for business into some other areas and start a business under a different name. I can almost guarantee you won't make it.

                With that said, the easier you make anything to install, the less likely a consumer is to call a professional to install or repair it. That cannot be argued. And if it's easier, then I have to say it is less skilled and professional.

                I don't find any mystery super skill about soldering. But I've worked for many people that can build their own deck, but won't touch soldering no matter what. Those same people will grab some crimpers and Sharbites in a second and go at it.

                Now, with all of this blah, blah, blah-Anyone should try to install what they do the best they can with an eye for extra detail in my opinion.

                And I have no problem if they ban all of this stuff tomorrow & go back to screw pipe and Cast Iron.

                The bottom line is that every business that has ever been successful has adapted to changes in that business. It will always be that way also.


                J.C.

                Comment


                • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                  It is not.

                  Making more personal statements towards some removes focus from your position and degrades your defense though.

                  I myself do what it takes to be as profitable & hopefully ethical as possible. I've installed PEX, copper, CPVC. Just depends on what's going on.

                  Some that preach the copper gospel would starve in new construction. We can all say that it's because this guy or that guy wants to do it the easy way with PEX, CPVC, or whatever else.

                  Maybe it's everybody elses fault that only uses copper. They should have stuck to threading galvanized and brass for water distribution. Right? That takes more skill. No? You have completely destroyed the trade and "sold out" because you only use copper. I see the same people that only want to use copper and say the less skilled distribution is destroying the trade put in PVC every single time. Go put in CI with lead along with screw pipe and save the trade. Right? The same logic must apply. Can't have one without the other.

                  It's very easy to have a 70 year old established business and expound on how you will never use this or that product & charge the most while judging others doing what it takes to survive.

                  I dare you to take the exact same model you use for business into some other areas and start a business under a different name. I can almost guarantee you won't make it.

                  With that said, the easier you make anything to install, the less likely a consumer is to call a professional to install or repair it. That cannot be argued. And if it's easier, then I have to say it is less skilled and professional.

                  I don't find any mystery super skill about soldering. But I've worked for many people that can build their own deck, but won't touch soldering no matter what. Those same people will grab some crimpers and Sharbites in a second and go at it.

                  Now, with all of this blah, blah, blah-Anyone should try to install what they do the best they can with an eye for extra detail in my opinion.

                  And I have no problem if they ban all of this stuff tomorrow & go back to screw pipe and Cast Iron.

                  The bottom line is that every business that has ever been successful has adapted to changes in that business. It will always be that way also.


                  J.C.
                  Very clean,and once again appreciated J.C.

                  Comment


                  • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                    There are pros and cons of every material. I present the information to my customers and 90% of them choose plastic. It is code approved and I have no right not to give a paying customer a code approved product.

                    I run a proper business and give customers choices. I'll never have a lack of work because I'm a pleasure to do business with and my installs last.

                    After being taught by 15 or so plumbers in my family that have done this job before me and ran their own business in 3 different states for the past 80 years....I feel like have a good idea of how to operate a plumbing repair business.

                    Comment


                    • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                      Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                      There are pros and cons of every material. I present the information to my customers and 90% of them choose plastic. It is code approved and I have no right not to give a paying customer a code approved product.

                      I run a proper business and give customers choices. I'll never have a lack of work because I'm a pleasure to do business with and my installs last.

                      After being taught by 15 or so plumbers in my family that have done this job before me and ran their own business in 3 different states for the past 80 years....I feel like have a good idea of how to operate a plumbing repair business.
                      Fair enough

                      Comment


                      • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                        [QUOTE=JCsPlumbing;322160]
                        Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                        Dunbar keeps saying it takes skill to run copper. I say a monkey can do it. Its more science than skill. I say I could teach a 5 year old to solder. I already did teach an 8yr old.

                        This has nothing to do with plumbing theory IMO. I realize plumbing theory is not learned overnight but soldering doesn't even take an hour to learn the principles and then its monkey work.[/QUOTE]

                        Just curious, what part of what you do isn't "monkey work" in your opinion?

                        Thanks.




                        J.C.
                        Designing the system and planning the install.

                        Comment


                        • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          And that is because plumbers accepted and even embraced a product that allows the contractor and the homeowner to tell you what you are going to charge. I do understand all too well. This has been going on for better than 50 years now. It has only now just reached the point where the effect is being felt by plumbers everywhere. We are not far away from the point where our services are no longer required. We could have stopped it a long time ago, but some saw an opportunity to underbid everybody else in town using cheaper faster materials and then everyone else jumped on the band wagon. So now you are at the point that you won't even mention copper, or a real vent, or solid fixture supplies ( the list goes on) because you KNOW that Joe plumber down the road is going to underbid you. In effect, you have allowed Joe plumber to set your price. You will chase Joe plumber for as long as you are in business.
                          Now I'm so confused ! Will You PALEEZE call Yourself " THE REAL MASTER ?" How many More masters are there behind the curtain?
                          THE ROMANS USED PEX ! IT'S OVER !
                          I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                          Comment


                          • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                            glad to see i'm a bystander in this one

                            but i see both points. i agree with most points from both sides and i also disagree with some points from both sides

                            i do believe that pex will take over for copper in the residential market. but i also see copper being used for the commercial market.

                            now if i was still doing repipes, i would favor pex for a number of reasons. and i would use it for my own home too. i also know a properly installed plastic dwv system the way to go. i do very little drain cleaning on plastic dwv and almost daily cleaning on cast/ no-hub dwv. plus plastic is more forgiving even when not properly installed.

                            i don't see it as taking a step backwards, i see it as progress. taking a step backwards is still threading rod for hangers because the union says it puts plumbers to work. the days of the unions calling the shots have shot themselves in the foot. i along with many others i've worked with over the years have long left the union and the politics of being in the union..

                            but that being said, whatever product one chooses to install, install it with pride just as you would for yourself, family, friends and customers. the old term " can't see it from my house" is b.s. in fact i sign my name to just about everything i touch and proud of it.

                            rick.
                            Rick,

                            You may be a wild man in the tool store when you're on a buying binge, but your post here is lucid and cogent. We can all choose or choose to not take pride in our work. Quality is simply adherence to specifications. What those specifications are is different for everyone. My customers have no doubt about the quality of my work and so don't argue about price. They can literally see the difference and know what they are getting. A couple days ago a journeyman plumber who works with me occasionally, and an inspector were awestruck by a gaspipe I ran for a dryer. The journeyman frequently has to redo his work to meet my standards, but he's starting to get it.

                            I find people are willing to pay a little more for the peace of mind of quality work. My customers recommend me and so it goes. When "master" doesn't wipe his solder joints, or runs pex that's fine, and if that's the level of craftsmanship his customers expect and he provides that's great. Everyone is happy.
                            Time flies like an arrow.

                            Fruit flies like a banana.

                            Comment


                            • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                              Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                              Rick,

                              You may be a wild man in the tool store when you're on a buying binge, but your post here is lucid and cogent. We can all choose or choose to not take pride in our work. Quality is simply adherence to specifications. What those specifications are is different for everyone. My customers have no doubt about the quality of my work and so don't argue about price. They can literally see the difference and know what they are getting. A couple days ago a journeyman plumber who works with me occasionally, and an inspector were awestruck by a gaspipe I ran for a dryer. The journeyman frequently has to redo his work to meet my standards, but he's starting to get it.

                              I find people are willing to pay a little more for the peace of mind of quality work. My customers recommend me and so it goes. When "master" doesn't wipe his solder joints, or runs pex that's fine, and if that's the level of craftsmanship his customers expect and he provides that's great. Everyone is happy.
                              Most of my copper joints dont need wiping. I control the heat and understand that all that solder running down the pipe and all the solder that drips on the floor doesn't help. Its science.

                              Comment


                              • Re: PEX Vs RAT

                                Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                                Once you obtain a certain amount of wealth your afforded the luxury to be picky about how you make your cheese. I will not do things today I would do 25 years ago and it all is about money.

                                You have never installed a POS faucet for a customer who wanted it? If you have then they are dictating the job.

                                Most commercial jobs the materials are spec'd out and you dont have a choice....what if you dont agree about a portion of it....do you pull out of the bid because you dont like they wanted 20 ga p traps instead of 17?
                                20 gauge p-traps aren't legal here and wouldn't pass inspection. If I were made to install 20 gauge I would make certain the deficiency was noticed by the inspector.

                                However, the rest of your argument has merit.
                                Time flies like an arrow.

                                Fruit flies like a banana.

                                Comment

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