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  • #31
    Re: Tankless water heaters

    Originally posted by blue_can View Post
    I installed a Bosch 240 FX (which is the Takagi TK1 sold as a Bosch I believe) for myself in the summer of 2003. It has been in full time use since then and I've never had any problems with it.

    As far as installation - it requires an electric outlet nearby. Since I was replacing an electric tank I simply converted the outlet from a 240V to a 120V outlet. The home also intended a gas tank heater to be used so I was able to take advantage of the gas line nearby although I had to enlarge the pipe from 1/2" to 1". 3/4" is recommended but I went with 1". I could not use the 3" B-vent so I cut a hole in the wall for the direct venting and used 4" single wall vent. The heater install was inspected and approved by the city.

    One other thing I did since we are in a hard water area was to provide access ports in the plumbing so that I could flush the heater exchanger with descaling solution using a drill pump and tubing. This worked well although I stopped doing it once I installed a water softener.

    I personally have no complaints. I have used the shower with at least one or two major appliances running at the same time and the water temp and pressure stays fairly constant. Of course I'm in San Diego where the weather is mild so a TK1 works fine for my home.

    They are very overpriced for sure but I got my unit at a good price and since I did the install myself cost was not a big deal. As far as routine maintenance not much is required. The burners are sealed so cleaning the flame sensor or burner is not required. The flow sensor needs to be cleaned from time to time but not much else.

    Not sure why most people on here have had negative experiences with tankless heaters.
    Is yours a propane or natural...if propane can you estimate how much you use? Also can you snap a pic and post it?
    Poor Planning On Your Part Does Not Constitute An Emergency On My Part!!
    You can fire me...but you can't tell me what to do!

    Derek

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Tankless water heaters

      Originally posted by Lee H View Post
      No, but they can keep guessing or read a old post that I disclosed my profession
      Originally posted by Lee H View Post
      I don't believe I've taken any potshots but I certainly have replied being on the defensive.

      We have 6 boiler lines, 2 Tankless lines & Trane. I'm a principal so yes I must be careful. Over the years I have had the opportunity to develop many relationships so back to the earlier challenge, you will be hard pressed to find an official response posting on walls from Rinnai, Noritz, Takagi, Trane, Triangle Tube, Buderus, Lochinvar and so on. Their corporate policy does not allow an official on-line response.

      Regarding the Navien units, it was trying at first but the last 8 months has been almost trouble free and the new models they started shipping last month have been great (fingers crossed) .

      The biggest problem with Navien is assuming they are a standard Tankless. They are not, mainly because they have a premix burner. This is sensitive to low and fluctuating gas pressures. While Rinnai used to bad mouth this style of burner, quess what their condensing unit has one too. These are not new as condensing boilers have been using them for some time. The problem is with insufficient pressures it may need adjustment with a dual port manometer that most plumbers would not have. Of course the biggest attraction to the Navien was the PVC venting that attracted even more installers and in some areas DIYers that thought they could install only to not have the knowledge, skills or proper tools.
      sounds like a partner in a hvac supply house.

      problem is you're in sales and not in installs. you hear of the problems, but you don't go out daily and see the installs and service them. you get your info from your manufacturer's and the techs that come in for replacements.

      so unless you're an ex field guy, you don't see hands on what we see in the field on a daily basis.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Tankless water heaters

        Originally posted by Lee H View Post
        No, but they can keep guessing or read a old post that I disclosed my profession
        Originally posted by Lee H View Post
        To comment on that it is amazing how many professional installers of Tankless own neither a manometer or an electric meter, both being fundimental to the installation of equipment. We stock the stuff at the counters for a reason but I gather the installation professional prefer to guess?
        Originally posted by Lee H View Post
        Excellent
        may I sell you a combustion analyzer? Get ready for the future!
        Not that it matters, but he obviously has something to do with supply houses. If I was building a new home I would probably use a combination of tanked and tankless water heating depending on the fixture. I doubt there would ever be a pay back but both systems have their place.

        Mark


        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Tankless water heaters

          Incoming water temperature is 37oF this morning in Toronto, Canada.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Tankless water heaters

            Originally posted by dcman View Post
            Is yours a propane or natural...if propane can you estimate how much you use? Also can you snap a pic and post it?
            Mine is NG. They do sell a propane version. This heater is now obsolete - not sure what the replacement unit is.

            Here are some photos. I'm unable to get a good photo from the front due to the limited clearance.





            Remote controller. This is an optional item although I think it should be included with the heater. It allows temp adjustment and also you can put the unit into stadnby without turning the power off. It can also show error codes to help doagnose problems if they occur. If you don't have this the heater is preset to heat water to around 120 deg F.



            Some photos of the venting





            I actually thought about designing and implementing a hybrid system - a tankless coupled to a small tank which would reside in front of the tankless and help iron out some of the no-favorable features of tankless but I don't have room for something like that. Also not sure if you can buy small tanks with a self contained burner - I would have been looking at a 5 gal or so unit.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Tankless water heaters

              Blue Can, that venting.. ... wow... I am just speechless. And you profile says you are an engineer. wow.
              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Tankless water heaters

                Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                Blue Can, that venting.. ... wow... I am just speechless. And you profile says you are an engineer. wow.
                Something wrong with it? It passed inspection so I assumed it was okay.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Tankless water heaters

                  Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                  Something wrong with it? It passed inspection so I assumed it was okay.
                  I never seen stainless steal venting get discolored like that. But then I would bet that is not stainless steal venting is it.
                  Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                  A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                  Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                  Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Tankless water heaters

                    Yes it is single wall stainless. The "discoloration" is the weld filler when I welded the seams - or rather brazed the seams. This was done at the request of the inspector.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Tankless water heaters

                      Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                      Yes it is single wall stainless. The "discoloration" is the weld filler when I welded the seams - or rather brazed the seams. This was done at the request of the inspector.
                      Then if I where you I would call the inspector and show him what the heat is doing to that weld filler and the pipe. That straight pipe sure looks like its galvanized pipe to me though.
                      Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                      A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                      Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                      Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Tankless water heaters

                        one comment, it isnt stainless it is Galvy! other than that you are on your own

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Tankless water heaters

                          Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                          Then if I where you I would call the inspector and show him what the heat is doing to that weld filler and the pipe. That straight pipe sure looks like its galvanized pipe to me though.
                          It's sloppy work on my part for not cleaning off the burnt flux on top of the weld filler in some places. However, it has looked like that from the beginning and the heat that caused it is from the welding - not the heater. The hood portion is SS and the straight run is galv.

                          I assume you guys at also weld or seal the seams in some way. I found with my gas detector that you can have tiny leaks at the seams. I initially sealed the seams with high temp silicone but when the inspector came he wanted to see it welded which is why I ended up doing it.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Tankless water heaters

                            another train wreck cant help but watch / chime in. but if you don't have the clearance on the front to take a picture how do you think you'll have the clearance in the front to properly work on it!?

                            You didnt use the right vent pipe at all, if you used the right vent you would have had half the seams. And BTW Bosch is NOT takagi and Home Depot DOESN'T sell the right vent pipe.

                            Finally your inspector should be fired!/hung

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Tankless water heaters

                              Exhaust Vent: All Takagi water heaters are Category III appliances, and therefore MUST be vented with Category III stainless steel, four inch diameter, exhaust gas vent pipe made especially for Category III appliances (the exception is the T-H1, which is a Category IV unit and uses a vent pipe approved for Category III appliances). The Category III pipe, which is available from several manufacturers, is called a “BH” vent pipe in Canada. Using another material, such as common B-vent, will damage the heater, possibly resulting in carbon monoxide poisoning. The entire exhaust vent must be sealed – from the top of the heater to the terminator. This is done by the high-temperature seals and locking devices built into the Category III

                              From Takagi's website!

                              PLEASE get a plumber in there to install the correct vent pipe for your family's sake.

                              I am glad that you posted those pictures on here so you can learn the correct way to do things.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Tankless water heaters

                                Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                                It's sloppy work on my part for not cleaning off the burnt flux on top of the weld filler in some places. However, it has looked like that from the beginning and the heat that caused it is from the welding - not the heater. The hood portion is SS and the straight run is galv.

                                I assume you guys at also weld or seal the seams in some way. I found with my gas detector that you can have tiny leaks at the seams. I initially sealed the seams with high temp silicone but when the inspector came he wanted to see it welded which is why I ended up doing it.

                                The pipe I use do not have seams like that. On Takagi I use the T-Vent with the snap lock joints that have a gasket that does not need any sealant. Their 90º fittings do not have seams like that.


                                Also the manufactures recommend that all the vent piping to be Category III Stainless Steel.
                                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                                Comment

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