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Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

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  • #16
    Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

    My money is on overtightening. Teflon over the brass ferrule is the proper installation method to help prevent expansion and contraction leaks. CPVC is allergic to almost every substance known to man also I personally will not use it except on relief lines and I only use solvent weld/brass adapters when I repair it or sharkbites. Too many other good choices of pipe for me to use cpvc. Its a bit too brittle for me.

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    • #17
      Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

      I have to confess it never even crossed my mind to use a typical compression stop on CPVC.

      Either solvent weld or adapter.


      J.C.

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      • #18
        Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

        Originally posted by OLD1 View Post
        Not sure about that..Cpvc has been around long enough to prove itself to me ..Iguess you are a "hack" if you install anything but copper ..What are your feelings about Pex
        PEX is king! Used it to plumb my grandmothers log cabin...

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        • #19
          Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

          I use a lot of Viega Pex, love it. I use a lot of copper, love it. I've never installed a single piece of cpvc, hate it. I also don't like push on hack fittings. I like a good mechanical joint for my water pipe. If it's pex it's going to be a bronze fitting with a stainless steel sleeve pressed on with a tool and I can test it right now. It just feels funny to glue water pipes together and then cross your fingers it's going to hold after you wait until the cows come home to test.
          This is just my preference and don't really care what others want to use. If it's legal and you like it use it, but I won't do it.
          Did I mention how much I love pex?



          Originally posted by OLD1 View Post
          Not sure about that..Cpvc has been around long enough to prove itself to me ..Iguess you are a "hack" if you install anything but copper ..What are your feelings about Pex

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          • #20
            Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
            You need to post some pictures of these failures. The stop used and the break point. More than one if you can.

            Might help.

            P.S. The pipe company AND the stop company will do everything they can to declare it "poor workmanship". They'll look for a microdot of an unapproved pipe dope that was on your glove. Blame you for everything.

            Sorry you're having to go through this.


            J.C.

            JC! You're alive!!
            Time flies like an arrow.

            Fruit flies like a banana.

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            • #21
              Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

              Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
              JC! You're alive!!
              You can't kill me, only knock me down for awhile.


              J.C.

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              • #22
                Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

                Originally posted by nwpent View Post
                I'm looking for other plumbers that have experienced problems with CPVC piping when a compression type fixture stop is installed on the pipe. I have letters and documentation from the stop manufacturer that states their stops can be used on CPVC and they recognize this practice as industry standard in some areas of the country. Lubrizol (Flowgaurd Gold) also has public documentation that recognizes these types of connections as acceptable.

                I am experiencing failures at toilets, lavatories, kitchen sinks, etc. on the hot and cold side of the system where a fixture stop just breaks off obviously flooding the home. I have had several of these tested by a chemist to try and figure out what the issue is. The test results where somewhat inconclusive due to lubrizol's resin "recipe" not being public knowledge so the chemist had nothing to compare the ingredients to.

                Anyway, the failures I'm seeing are around 4-5 years after installation which is whithin the 8 year state statute that covers a homeowner against poor workmanship. I'm being sued on a regular basis for poor workmanship and I am convinced something is wrong with the pipe. I'm hoping I can find a few more companies that have experienced the same issue so we can get Lubrizol to discuss this.
                I hope this hasn't been a financial burden for You N Family. Be Well Tool
                I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

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                • #23
                  Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

                  I'm referring to a typical brasscraft angle or straight stop. The testing company I used did start with a visual inspection which included infrared and standard microscopic inspection. "Micro cracks" were present in the area of the nut and ferrule when these inspections were done. The micro cracks are caused by the ferrule biting into the pipe when the compression nut is tightened. This lead me to look at the actual chemical properties of the pipe. What I have learned is that CPVC (and many other plastic products) has a material called "impact modifiers" which makes CPVC less brittle and more forgiving if something hits the pipe. I've been told, off the record by people in the industry, that over time chlorine in municipal water can react negatively with the pipe and will "suck" the impact modifiers out of the pipe which results in a more brittle pipe and in areas of stress failures will be more likely.

                  I've heard all the buzz words from manufacturers like over tightening and environmental stress cracking which is BS in my opinion. What is the definition of over tightening? I've never seen a plumber using a torch wrench to measure ft lbs while tightening anything in a residential plumbing system. Manufacturers have a responsibility to engineer realistic tolerances into their products because what's tight to me, may not be tight to the next guy. Environmental stress cracking is just a convenient cop out that's just vague enough to stop plumbers from pursuing defective material claims.

                  When I look at the incompatible materials list for CPVC I feel like a big dumba## for using the pipe at all. It seems like my guys could break for lunch, eat a bag of potato chips with vegetable oil on the chips and if they don't wash their hands before they go back to work, the oil on his hands from the chips could damage the pipe. What a joke!!

                  I appreciate all your responses so far and if anyone runs across some of what I've described, let me know because I do believe there is something to my theory.

                  Thanks guys.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

                    Honestly I have never seen a regular compression angle stop installed on cpvc and if I did it would scare me half to death. I see from this thread that some people do it and it shocks me. The two are not made for each other.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

                      AKA. factus non victus

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                      • #26
                        Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

                        The use of comp. stops on CPVC is an accepted practice according
                        to their tech. manual. Like anything else it needs to be done
                        correctly. We've been doing it for well over 15 years. Since stress
                        cracking can occur with over tightening of the nut, then obviously
                        the torque issue is not BS. While there are no specific numbers
                        pertaining to the application of ft./lbs., one must apply a little common
                        sense. For example, one would not have to tighten a comp. fitting on
                        CPVC as tight as on copper. That's one reason for the use of teflon tape
                        on the ferrule. As long as it doesn't leak, then it's tight enough.
                        If the ferrule is cutting into the pipe, then it's too tight.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

                          The BS I was referring to was from the manufacturer when I hear that I shouldn't over tighten. I challenge you or anyone else to give me a clear definition of "over tighten" and hold yourself and your people accountable to that definition without any real criteria that needs to be met.

                          Common sense is necessary in many situations and should begin at a manufacturers facility so like I said before, they will engineer a more forgiving range of tolerances because "common sense" should tell them they will have many different people with different physical capabilities and experience levels installing their products. Have you ever let a helper install something? (I hope so as this is how they learn)

                          Do I need to remind you that I am having these installed as per both manufacturers recommendations and accepted practices. I have also been doing this for many years without any problems and now I suddenly have several. The principle behind a compression fitting is for the ferrule to squeeze or bite into the pipe and I submit to you that if you are or have installed compression stops on CPVC and the stop doesn't or hasn't leaked, you are also at risk of what I'm dealing with because I bet you the pipe has or will develop the same type of micro cracks that may or may not fail. (Do you hear the time bomb ticking?)

                          Nobody here has to talk me out of using this method of installing stops in the future, or critique my common sense. If I find anyone using these in my shop, they will immediately be fired. I simply wanted to reach out to other plumbers to see if anyone else had experienced the same issues because if you haven't and you use the same supposed accepted method that I fell for, you are at risk. Together, we could make one manufacturer accountable and teach others to do better R & D. This type of thing will only get worse as metal continues to be pushed out of our industry and plastic dominates the products we are told to install.

                          I do agree with a few other guys on here as PEX is GREAT! (so far) Anyone using plastic fittings with a crimp PEX system yet? I am and it's likely coming to a town near you.

                          Thanks for your response's.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

                            Originally posted by nwpent View Post
                            AKA. factus non victus
                            This Old Irishman's Life
                            I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

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                            • #29
                              Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

                              Brass Compression Ferrules
                              CTS CPVC pipe can be used with standard brass ferrules to make compression connections where the operating temperature will not exceed 140°F. The O.D. of copper tube size (CTS) CPVC pipe is identical to that of copper. We recommend that Teflon (PTFE) tape be applied over the ferrule to allow for the dissimilar thermal expansion and contraction characteristics of the metal ferrule and the plastic pipe that could possibly result in a drip leak over a period of time. NOTICE: Do not over-torque the compression connection as over-torquing may result in a cracked pipe. Non-metallic or nylon ferrules are not recommended.
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                              • #30
                                Re: Flowgaurd Gold CPVC

                                What does the teflon tape over the ferrule do other than help the seal when the underside of the ferrule is biting into the cpvc
                                ''Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Benjamin Franklin

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