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  • #31
    Re: "I'm not paying this...'

    Originally posted by Flux View Post
    I've never had to sign my rights over for the family doctor. If one was presented to me, I would simply walk out the door and find another Doctor.

    But If you're going to use that angle, should we Plumbers do the same thing, and have a customer sign away their rights when we walk through the door? We could easily kill a person or make them sick because of one of our screw-ups, and it's no different with Doctors.

    I'm on the fence and can lean either way on this thread, because the Doctor called Ray to his home for HIS problem. The Doctor already said to Ray that the last time it was fixed, it cost $250.00, but yet this Doctor failed to inform Ray that it wasn't a potable water line. A customer knows their home better than any contractor that would walk through the door.

    It's quite easy for any one of us to sit here and critique what happened here, but only Ray knows the conversations that were taken place over 2 days, none of us here knows what was said over those 2 days, and none of us seen the job. Put Ray's charge's aside for a second, Ray probably had to turn people away (loss of potential income) because he was there to fix a problem the Doctor was having. I don't even know Ray, and it's quite obvious from the way he described the situation, that he was not there to hang out and gouge the Doctor.

    It doesn't matter what any excuse a customer could come up with, but not 1 Person here would tolerate a customer saying "I'm not paying for this", and a court of Law would back Ray up. The price was already agreed upon before work was even started, and Ray's time is worth something, and if 1 or 2 mistakes were not made in this situation, Ray STILL would of been here telling us how this doctor refused to pay for this problem anyways.

    If I was in this exact same situation as described, I would of adjusted my price at the end, because of what the end result was. But the Doctor doesn't get to pick and choose what he's going to pay for, just because he doesn't like the final price. You or anyone else here wouldn't put up with that, and Ray has every right to take this guy to court if he wishes to do so.
    I believe you missed my point. For your insurance company to recoup money from your doctors misdiagnoses, you would have to sigh your rights over to your insurance company before they could go after your doctor. That is not to say you could not go after your doctor on your own. You would be in a much better place to go after the doctor as the insurance payments would likely be minimum compared to your damages.

    Mark
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: "I'm not paying this...'

      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
      I believe you missed my point. For your insurance company to recoup money from your doctors misdiagnoses, you would have to sigh your rights over to your insurance company before they could go after your doctor. That is not to say you could not go after your doctor on your own. You would be in a much better place to go after the doctor as the insurance payments would likely be minimum compared to your damages.

      Mark
      Now why didn't you explain it that way the first time?

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: "I'm not paying this...'

        Well this situation sucks. Now you are in a no win situation..You went from 4k to $450.00..The customer is thinking if you could have done it for $450.00 in the first place why are you trying to fleece them..I would cut my losses and eat the labor (not all but most). Atleast you didn't have $2,000.00 in material .Now that would suck. Also I know I push the envelope sometimes turning the water on after a glue joint but 3 times in a row .I know sometimes tempers flare but you cannot go ripping things out after they are installed .Most of the time here you still have to complete the project and then go after them if it is a contract job..Mechanics lien etc..again lots of money and you recoup pennies on the dollar..I hope everything turns out and you are able to maintain a civil relationship with the dr. .Every day is a learning experience .Take care
        ''Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Benjamin Franklin

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: "I'm not paying this...'

          I agree with most of the comments, but i also know from experience that , what customers say is NOT always correct. You could have, checked the supply yourself, thus making the correct choice on which supply it was. I NEVER get anyone else to switch off an electric circuit for me, YEP i do it myself.....

          Anyway,it was " good business "to reduce the bill.

          EVERYDAY IS A SCHOOL DAY

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: "I'm not paying this...'

            Originally posted by pressy View Post
            I agree with most of the comments, but i also know from experience that , what customers say is NOT always correct. You could have, checked the supply yourself, thus making the correct choice on which supply it was. I NEVER get anyone else to switch off an electric circuit for me, YEP i do it myself....

            Anyway,it was " good business "to reduce the bill.

            EVERYDAY IS A SCHOOL DAY
            Right on man! I was helping put the stove in my dads house and we had to flip the floor mounted outlet so that it cleared the rear foot. I told my dad to go turn off the breaker so I could move it. He left, and came back a couple minutes later. I pulled the cover, removed the two screws holding it to the floor and grabbed the outlet to twist it to the other side. I instantly felt a good tingle in my fingers and up my arm. I luckily let go quickly and turned to my dad and amazingly, politely asked "didn't you turn off the breaker?"
            To which I got the response, "oh ****!" And he ran back downstairs. From that day forward, if ever I have to mess with electrical stuff, I turn the breaker off myself.
            Last edited by Alphacowboy; 09-09-2011, 05:46 PM. Reason: sp

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            • #36
              Re: "I'm not paying this...'

              L77-77 Last item in the list is a 2" pvc 90 degree fitting. Those are for when a customer needs their water back on tonight, not in 24 hours.
              Originally posted by NHMaster3015
              No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: "I'm not paying this...'

                Originally posted by Alphacowboy View Post
                Right on man! I was helping put the stove in my dads house and we had to flip the floor mounted outlet so that it cleared the rear foot. I told my dad to go turn off the breaker so I could move it. He left, and came back a couple minutes later. I pulled the cover, removed the two screws holding it to the floor and grabbed the outlet to twist it to the other side. I instantly felt a good tingle in my fingers and up my arm. I luckily let go quickly and turned to my dad and amazingly, politely asked "didn't you turn off the breaker?"
                To which I got the response, "oh ****!" And he ran back downstairs. From that day forward, if ever I have to mess with electrical stuff, I turn the breaker off myself.

                Alpha, I suggest you put a tester in the outlet before you put your hands in there. What if the breaker is mislabeled? What if the outlet is powered by more than one source? The tester only takes a second and the life you save may be your own.
                Time flies like an arrow.

                Fruit flies like a banana.

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                • #38
                  Re: "I'm not paying this...'

                  Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                  Alpha, I suggest you put a tester in the outlet before you put your hands in there. What if the breaker is mislabeled? What if the outlet is powered by more than one source? The tester only takes a second and the life you save may be your own.
                  I do usually. Only time I mess with it is my own house or when doing demo work and I need to disconnect something in the wall I am removing. Thanks for the advise though.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: "I'm not paying this...'

                    Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
                    L77-77 Last item in the list is a 2" pvc 90 degree fitting. Those are for when a customer needs their water back on tonight, not in 24 hours.
                    actually we discussed this option yesterday. prefab a 90 and a couple stubs to dry overnight and then g couple them in or a dresser coupling. but you also need to restrain them to prevent separation. the other option is a temporary high pressure hose and clamping ring.

                    remember guys, regardless of what the dr. told dave or ray, we are the pros and we should know how long it takes glue to dry. add more time based on pressure and pipe size.

                    i put a doctor in his place 2 weeks ago with the purchase of a 1.7m home. i was representing the seller. this dr was so clueless that i actually had to explain to him 4 different times that the sewer report that was provided to him by his inspector stated the right side sewer and the left side sewer. 4 times to get the dr. to understand right from left. actually told him that's why people get their wrong leg amputated

                    so although the dr. might think they know more that us it us that know more about plumbing than they do

                    in the end, ray made his decision based on input from the forum members. not just my conversation

                    and honestly it was a learning experience all the way around. just look at all the members that got involved and all the thanks that were given.

                    it's never fun to give away money, but making your customers happy is what eventually pays all the bills.

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: "I'm not paying this...'

                      If you got his signature saying it was XXX for the first hour and XXX per hour after that, then if well documented should be a easy win in court. doctors are A holes. I bend em over every chance I get since when I "bend over" they stick it to me...

                      Shouldn't have let him touch anything though. I STILL have to tell apprentices to SLOWLY turn on the meter, and they STILL turn it on as fast as they can.

                      Him bitching about his grass dying would make it all the more sweeter to win in court. Soaking up your time on a weekend, stressing and being away from your family for a non emergency then after you guys put your all into it he wants to complain about the bill.

                      Honestly how arrogant/braindead can he be to have you guys there on a weekend stressing over a problem, when it wasn't even a emergency? Hard to imagine with him being that kind of diva he is not paying happily....

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: "I'm not paying this...'

                        I think you have done the right thing. Now with that being said, when THEY decided that it was a emergency by telling you the dr had no water, that was their choice you should have upcharged them for working after hours on a emergency call. go to the dr from 8 to 5 and look at your bill then go see him at 9pm and look at the difference. I got a piece of solder stuck in my eye trying to un-solder a fitting and had to go to the e.r. and the doc put some deadening drops in my eye and got the solder out with a qtip. That took about 5min and cost me 400 dollars. So remember the dr saw it as an emergency not you. Not that helpful now, but maybe next time.

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                        • #42
                          Re: "I'm not paying this...'

                          Ray did exactly what he needed to do and he should write it up to experience. It doesn't matter what the doctor asked for, as the pro you need to tell the doctor what can and cannot be done. Imagine if you went to the doctor and ask that your appendix be removed even though it wasn't needed. Should the doctor just do it or advise you what you really needed. I could see maybe making one try at the repair after warning the doctor why you could not guarantee it would work. There is no way I would work through the night with continued failed attempts.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: "I'm not paying this...'

                            I sent him this:

                            I have modified your bill (attached). I have reduced the labor time to 5 hours total. I think this would be a fair rate to repair the PVC once and then again per your request with copper & brass fittings.
                            I have built a solid reputation and grown my company in a recession by being fair with people. I don't want to be unfair to you. I know that you are a good person and want to be dealt with fairly so I understand why you were upset with the bill. Please except my sincerest apologies for the initial invoice and any inconvenience that I or my crew may have caused you.

                            Thank you for your business.

                            Sincerely,

                            Raymond Michaels
                            Maui Plumbing Inc.


                            He replied with this:

                            Dear Raymond Michaels:
                            Your bill sent me for a loop. You know saturday when you were leaving , I told myself you should try to clarify billing charges , laughingly i told myself this guy is going to bill you a $1000.00 for gluing a pipe. But you took abuse to a whole new level .. In the mean time I have contacted 3 plumbers and 2 landscapers for an estimate of what it should cost to repair the pipes as presented to them with the pictures. I have also contacted Maui Land , of the 29 systems present that require pumping not one has copper pipes , and they warned about the joints were the copper and pvc meet becomes less stable thatn pvc to pvc. Of the 5 estimates , the least expensive is X nursery for $55.00 and the most expensive is Y Co. for $335.00 . Z plumbing told me $285.00 who by the way is the company i was going to call before Seree suggested to call you . A professional Plumber knows how to glue pipes together that are under pressure, and if unsure by the terms of their liscense must refer to a professional who is capable of the required task .

                            I did say I will pay for the parts used , although much of it unnecassary , but to chage me $1000.00 for parts used? I am certaqin I can them gold plated cheaper than that. your performance , and billing makes a mockery of professional conduct , and unless corrected I will ask the state to review and evaluate the case.
                            sincerely,
                            Dr. X

                            The photo is my bill. Keep in mind that parts may look expensive to you on the mainland but gas is 4.85 here and a Bradford White 30 gal lb sells for about 408.00
                            Click image for larger version

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                            Last edited by mpm; 09-10-2011, 02:00 AM.
                            Ray

                            “Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think.”— Francisco d'Anconia
                            Atlas Shrugged (Part 2, Chapter 2, Page 411)

                            www.mauiplumbinginc.com

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: "I'm not paying this...'

                              You cant win them all. My old boss taught me that it is better to walk away with a good name than to fight a client over money. I always thought he was stupid, money is money right? On one particular job the customer changed all of her window sizes on an addition, AFTER the contract with my boss was signed, and he had ordered windows per the approved plans. Needless to say, we needed new custom made windows. 8K worth of windows were thrown in the trash, the boss ate the 8K. After this job was finished, we were referred 3 more large jobs by this customer. Had he fought her, we would more than likely not got those 3 other jobs. His profit on those three jobs was significantly greater than the 8K he had lost on that job.

                              My solution if I wanted to be a dick? I would say that I would be willing to take all of the parts off of the bill. When he agrees in writing, go to his property shut off the breaker and remove everything you installed and leave. You get your "I'll fix his wagon grudge " satisfaction quota filled, and he gets to hire somebody to fix his problem for $55.(yeah right...)

                              In the end you are going to loose no matter what you do, its best to walk away with your good reputation.

                              Small claims court might get you your asking price, but like previously mentioned, winning a judgement does not guarantee payment on said judgement. A lien on his home and another lawsuit to perfect the lien would be in order. Then you can try to force a foreclosure on the home to get your bill paid, but how much is that going to cost you?
                              Last edited by masterbeavis; 09-10-2011, 11:37 AM. Reason: highlighting my point in case it is missed.
                              We don't have preventative maintenance around here, we have CRISIS MANAGEMENT!

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                              • #45
                                Re: "I'm not paying this...'

                                @ toutahnow
                                Im not saying he was right with the bill. All im saying is that if you offer to go the next day and they insist that they need you immediatly and it puts you working late no matter what the reason is that calls for an extra charge. If you go to the e.r. and they tell you its a common cold do they charge you any less. He wasnt fixing anything that didnt need to be fixed it was the time that he was having to fix it. Thats all I meant.

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