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  • #16
    Re: Heat pump Water heaters

    Heres a link and text to a new york times article

    The Obama administration on Thursday released new energy efficiency standards for water heaters and other appliances that it said would save consumers $10 billion over 30 years while cutting greenhouse gas emissions.


    The water heater standards issued by the United States Department of Energy are stricter than those originally proposed in December and which had received a lukewarm reaction from environmentalists. The biggest change increases the energy efficiency mandates for water heaters that hold 55 gallons or more of water.

    Although the Energy Department does not specify which technologies manufacturers must adopt, the new standards would effectively require the use of more advanced technologies like heat pump electric water heaters and condensing gas water heaters, according to energy efficiency experts.

    “Condensing gas technology and heat pump water heater technology in the largest units are cost-effective now and will eventually become cost-effective across the board,” Lane Burt, manager of building energy policy at the Natural Resources Defense Council, wrote on his blog Thursday.


    Heat pump water heaters tap heat from the surrounding air to warm water while condensing water heaters capture gases that normally are vented and use them to heat water.

    The Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute, a trade group, had argued that such technologies were too expensive and not ready for widespread deployment.

    The new standards would raise the cost of a water heater by about $120 but would save $143 over the life of the appliance, according to the Energy Department. With the revised efficiency standards, the Energy Department estimates that carbon dioxide emissions will be cut by 164 million metric tons over 30 years, or the same as eliminating 46 million cars for one year.

    The water heater standards take effect in 2015 while manufacturers must meet new standards for pool heaters and direct heating equipment in 2013.
    No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Heat pump Water heaters

      Think about it, a heat pump water heater gets its heat from where?
      The surrounding air right. Now where is the water heater, its in the house somewhere.
      So the WH heat pump is taking heat out of the room and transferring it into the water.
      But where did the heat in the room come from. In the winter it came from whatever system heats the house.
      So you end up paying once for the fuel to heat the room, then again to heat the water in the tank. The BTUs taken from the room now have to be replaced, so the heater runs again. Doesn't sound too efficient to me.


      I believe this is just a way to force everyone to 'upgrade' their water heaters and generate new sales under the guise of increasing energy efficiency.
      ---------------
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      ---------------
      “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
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      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Heat pump Water heaters

        No arguements here bob. I don't put in too many electrics anyway, we mostly use gas here, and i'm loving the condensing tanks now.
        No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Heat pump Water heaters

          Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
          No arguements here bob. I don't put in too many electrics anyway, we mostly use gas here, and i'm loving the condensing tanks now.
          The HVAC boys were loving their condensing oil furnaces too. Then they found out that the secondary heat exchanger fell apart rather quickly and easily. I will admit, I have not taken the time to go over the way that they are manufactured, yet, but I will not install any domestic tankless water heater. I will however work on them as they are easy money! If you want a commercial heater check this line up out.

          If you want tried and true, PVI commercial water heaters baby.
          Last edited by Gettinit; 05-16-2012, 09:16 PM.
          AllurePlumbing.com
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          • #20
            Re: Heat pump Water heaters

            So who were you mooning in this pic?

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Heat pump Water heaters

              Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
              So who were you mooning in this pic?

              The customer who refused to get a CO detector and refused to do maintenance on there unit. This was two months of "unexplained" headaches, but the call was due to no heat. This was just one small pic of many holes.
              AllurePlumbing.com
              • leak detection
              • drain cleaning
              • utility locating
              • conductor fault locating
              • and other specialties.

              Greensboro NC, Winston-Salem NC, High Point NC, Thomasville NC, Kernersville NC

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              • #22
                Re: Heat pump Water heaters

                Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
                Heres a link and text to a new york times article

                The Obama administration on Thursday released new energy efficiency standards for water heaters and other appliances that it said would save consumers $10 billion over 30 years while cutting greenhouse gas emissions.


                The water heater standards issued by the United States Department of Energy are stricter than those originally proposed in December and which had received a lukewarm reaction from environmentalists. The biggest change increases the energy efficiency mandates for water heaters that hold 55 gallons or more of water.

                Although the Energy Department does not specify which technologies manufacturers must adopt, the new standards would effectively require the use of more advanced technologies like heat pump electric water heaters and condensing gas water heaters, according to energy efficiency experts.

                “Condensing gas technology and heat pump water heater technology in the largest units are cost-effective now and will eventually become cost-effective across the board,” Lane Burt, manager of building energy policy at the Natural Resources Defense Council, wrote on his blog Thursday.


                Heat pump water heaters tap heat from the surrounding air to warm water while condensing water heaters capture gases that normally are vented and use them to heat water.

                The Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute, a trade group, had argued that such technologies were too expensive and not ready for widespread deployment.

                The new standards would raise the cost of a water heater by about $120 but would save $143 over the life of the appliance, according to the Energy Department. With the revised efficiency standards, the Energy Department estimates that carbon dioxide emissions will be cut by 164 million metric tons over 30 years, or the same as eliminating 46 million cars for one year.

                The water heater standards take effect in 2015 while manufacturers must meet new standards for pool heaters and direct heating equipment in 2013.
                another government politician that hasn't a clue what size a heater is. at one time we had 60 and 65 gallon gas heaters. but between fvir and ultra lo nox, we have 30, 40, 50, then 75 gas.

                the replacement market is bad enough as the physical dimensions are getting bigger and the space remains old school.

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Heat pump Water heaters

                  I don't get it, seems like so much trouble...why not use solar collectors to preheat the water before it goes into the water heater? That's just extra pipe and no moving parts.
                  Buy cheap, buy twice.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Heat pump Water heaters

                    Yeah, I talk people out of tankless given any chance to do so.
                    I like the PVI heaters, but they aren't stock here, so I've only done 1 3 phase heater and 1 250 gallon 1 million btu model, The 250 is a beast


                    Originally posted by Gettinit View Post
                    The HVAC boys were loving their condensing oil furnaces too. Then they found out that the secondary heat exchanger fell apart rather quickly and easily. I will admit, I have not taken the time to go over the way that they are manufactured, yet, but I will not install any domestic tankless water heater. I will however work on them as they are easy money! If you want a commercial heater check this line up out.

                    If you want tried and true, PVI commercial water heaters baby.
                    No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Heat pump Water heaters

                      Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
                      The new standards would raise the cost of a water heater by about $120 but would save $143 over the life of the appliance, according to the Energy Department.
                      This is the part of the article that I like (sarcasm) the most.

                      What is the average life of a water heater in your area? In mine it is roughly ten years.

                      So you get an extra $120 upfront cost, but then you can save $143 spread out over ten years. Am I reading that correctly?

                      That works out to a $23 savings over 10 years, or a whopping $2.30 a year! Who cares! Even if I am reading that wrong and it is an actual $143 savings, spread out over 10 years that is still only $14.30 a year.

                      Why don't people ever factor in maintenance when they think about this stuff? I've installed a few heat pump water heaters (all of them customer supplied), and when they fail they will be a lot more expensive to repair then a basic electric water heater. There goes that $23 (or $143) you saved.

                      I just don't understand everyone trying to jump on this bandwagon.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Heat pump Water heaters

                        Do you drain and flush it out every few months? If so, 15 years. If not 7-10 years max. This is truly a case of preventative maintenance works.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Heat pump Water heaters

                          Originally posted by Jardonhu View Post
                          Do you drain and flush it out every few months? If so, 15 years. If not 7-10 years max. This is truly a case of preventative maintenance works.
                          This will benefit a standard gas water heater only, it is good to do thought. The lifeblood of the heater is the anode rod.
                          AllurePlumbing.com
                          • leak detection
                          • drain cleaning
                          • utility locating
                          • conductor fault locating
                          • and other specialties.

                          Greensboro NC, Winston-Salem NC, High Point NC, Thomasville NC, Kernersville NC

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                          • #28
                            Re: Heat pump Water heaters

                            Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
                            Take it with a grain of salt, this info came from my state water heater rep. But, according to him in 2015 any electric water heater 50 gallons and up will have to be heat pump. Supposedly the equivilent gas heater will have to be a condensing model. 40 gallons and larger will have to meet a higher energy factor, which means more insulation again.
                            If any of that pans out to be true we' will all have to get used to them.
                            You are correct....


                            2014-2015 EPA standards will require all tank type water heaters, gas or electric to be 89% plus efficient. This will raise the cost of the heater substantially. The feds are trying to make tankless more appealing. The average 40 gallon gas water heater will cost upwards of 900$ wholesale. The first gas models are already being tested and have fans and require 110v outlets. I was told this may not continue, but for now this is how the manufacturers are meeting the new req's.
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