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"The Great Propress debate"

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  • #16
    Re: "The Great Propress debate"

    try the jaw on a ridgid propress machine and see if the problem goes away. it could be the jaw, the tool or a compatibility issue.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

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    • #17
      Re: "The Great Propress debate"

      I agree pressing is nice. But it's not what you make it out to be.

      It's not as good a connection as solder. Show me evidence where it is BETTER. Not faster, better.

      Take speed out of the equation, and then tel me what's so great about it. If it took five minutes to press a joint, would you still be pressing?

      And it's so expensive. Smaller companies and individual plumbers, just can't afford one.

      It's safer? How many people using that argument have actually burned a house down? Sure if you are a idiot then soldering is dangerous.

      Where is that cross section of the pressed fitting? Any of you press guys, cut up a pressed fitting and post on here so we can all see how the rubber is flattened. If it is. Which the last time I pressed, was with a Ridged tool. And the o ring groove was just like a un pressed fitting. Just had the tool marks and six flat sides. But the actual ring was still round.

      Pro press has it's uses. But it's just not for everyone. And it's not essential. Not even close. What about swedging? Is there a press for that? What about manifolds that are made up using makeups? How do you press lines that are really close together? Or in small spots where you can't get the tool? I can solder a pipe with less than a quarter inch clearance on each side, how about you press guys, how's that work for you?

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      • #18
        Re: "The Great Propress debate"

        Right on! I've been at this for close to 40 years now and have NEVER EVER absolutely needed a Pro-Press for ANYTHING! Sure it's fast and sure it's easy and sure it's damn expensive too. I hear the same crap on every plumbing forum that brings this topic up. A bunch of guys that have spent their careers looking for and advocating all these fast and easy tools and materials that have DESTROYED the profession and turned it into a trade instead. You can now Pro-Press steel gas pipe so I guess there's no point in teaching threading or even owning threading tools. So now we don't need a torch, threading tools and on the horizon is pressed or push fit DWV. So basically a plumber really doesn't need a license nor can you justify your labor rate either but worse than that you will no longer be a skilled tradesman, because a Chimpanzee can do your job. But you don't care and you will post your rebuttal and argument because as long as YOU are making a few bucks the rest of the PROFESSION can screw.

        You Masters out there that are training apprentices. What are you teaching them? How to put batteries on a charger and push a button? How to string PEX across the floor joists and pound in plastic staples to hold it up. How about how to slap an AAV on a trap rather than drill a straight line of holes for a proper vent pipe? Maybe you taught him how to open the package that the flex supplies came in and screw them on with a pair of water pump pliers. The next generation of plumbers will not know anything about plumbing or craftsmanship and you have yourselves to blame but hey.......as long as YOU are making a buck
        Last edited by NHMaster3015; 06-02-2012, 09:51 AM.
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        • #19
          Re: "The Great Propress debate"

          last time i checked, the majority of soldered joints from 20 years ago still had lead. and the flux still had acid. acid flux is responsible for at least 1/2 the pin hole leaks i go to fix. even today as i've stated, the majority of non inspected work is being done with non water soluble flux illegally. even the supply house openly displays that flux.

          there is no comparison of the quality of fittings. long sweep turns and type k or thicker copper. compared to short sweep and type m fittings. lay a 90 side by side. put them on a scale. then tell me there is no difference.

          fire is a big factor in your liability insurance policy. jobs burn down every year due to plumbers and welders.

          the excuse that a plumber can't afford a tool is ridiculous. almost everyone owns a camera and that's 2 to 3 times the cost of a press tool. the ones i've rented too have purchased their own tool after seeing the advantages of the tool.

          not sure what you specialize in, but for me, service of large condos, commercial buildings and not having to sit and wait for the water to stop draining is the difference between me getting the job and another company bidding the same job.

          next week i have a 2.5'' copper repair that's 15' straight up in a large commercial center, entire city block. the hours of operation are 530am to 12 midnight. that leaves very little time to properly shut off and drain the water, and restart all the systems. with propress i can cut the copper and already assemble it while the water is still draining. 2 couplings and a 90 can be pressed in 2 minutes 15' off the ground on a ladder with absolutely no chance of a leak, with water running. try that with flux and solder. this isn't even my customer. it's another plumbers customer who refereed it to me.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

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          • #20
            Re: "The Great Propress debate"

            [QUOTE]
            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
            next week i have a 2.5'' copper repair that's 15' straight up in a large commercial center, entire city block. the hours of operation are 530am to 12 midnight. that leaves very little time to properly shut off and drain the water, and restart all the systems. with propress i can cut the copper and already assemble it while the water is still draining. 2 couplings and a 90 can be pressed in 2 minutes 15' off the ground on a ladder with absolutely no chance of a leak, with water running. try that with flux and solder. this isn't even my customer. it's another plumbers customer who refereed it to me
            .



            I would bet a whole lot of money that I can get the same job done in less than an hour without Pro-Press
            sigpic

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            • #21
              Re: "The Great Propress debate"

              I'm now over two years of using ProPress exclusively and I will never go back to soldering. I've stated many times that I still carry my solder tray in the truck, it still has the same half a roll of solder in it from over two years ago.

              I've yet to run into a job that I haven't been able to use ProPress and it's been so long now that soldering would feel like I'm going backwards.

              The argument that small shops can't afford one is just crazy. I've owned two Rothenbergers and plan on buying the new Ridgid 210 next month because I want a smaller machine. (Rick you were right) The large Rothenberger is heavy!

              I know that the fittings are better quality. I know that the job I'm doing is better quality. ProPress is better quality period. Also the jobs look better and yes it is safer. And yes it is faster and yes it's more profitable.

              Because of Propress my profits have gone up tremendously in the last two years. We get more jobs done because of Propress. While others are standing around picking their nose waiting for the water to stop dripping we're already on to the next job. Rick I also get called from other shops for Propress but I don't think that will last They'll be getting their own soon enough.

              You can love it or hate it but you will never convince me to go back to the dark ages and you will never convince me that it's lowering any standards etc.. Yes, it's progress and in a very good way. I'm a professional Master Plumber with over 25 years experience and I've been there done that. Why in hell would you still want to be soldering, wrenching, leading etc. when you have this? It blows my mind that some out there are so stubborn and thick headed.
              I understand some of you want to "save the trade" but the reality is the old ways are going going gone and if you can't keep up with the latest technology then you will be left behind and shops like mine will get the work.

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              • #22
                Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                Say Ranger, were you outside Propressing on a -30F day again? You know how metal snaps on those medium temp days here in Minneeeeesota.

                Seriously, one day, (not this last winter), I grabbed a jaw from the truck one COLD day and my hand was a little wet. Darn hand froze to the jaw for a few seconds. So cold it burned. I had to let the propress and batteries warm up for an hour or so before I could use them.

                Nope I was inside installing water meters. The darn thing just snapped in half about two inches from the end on one side. I hear ya about the cold! When it gets that cold everything needs to be warmed up before using it especially the propress machine since it's hydraulic. It gets so cold in the winter my pvc glue freezes!

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                • #23
                  Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                  I too am curious as to why the press tools have such a high price tag. I cannot imagine there is anything there in terms of real hardware/technology to warrant that cost. Maybe just the business model for pricing - low volume high cost as opposed to high volume/low cost?

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                  • #24
                    Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                    Originally posted by ironranger View Post
                    Nope I was inside installing water meters. The darn thing just snapped in half about two inches from the end on one side. I hear ya about the cold! When it gets that cold everything needs to be warmed up before using it especially the propress machine since it's hydraulic. It gets so cold in the winter my pvc glue freezes!
                    Never had to warm up my torch LOL
                    sigpic

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                    • #25
                      Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                      Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                      I too am curious as to why the press tools have such a high price tag. I cannot imagine there is anything there in terms of real hardware/technology to warrant that cost. Maybe just the business model for pricing - low volume high cost as opposed to high volume/low cost?
                      I'm glad they are high priced and I hope they stay high for obvious reasons.

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                      • #26
                        Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                        Never had to warm up my torch LOL
                        What's a torch?

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                        • #27
                          Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                          If every plumbing shop can afford one, why are you guys getting calls from shops that don't have them? And your reasoning for record profits, is because you are screwing your customer.

                          How can you justify charging a hour for a job that honestly took you longer to say hi to the customer than it did to repair with a press? You can not say oh im a licensed plumber, or I had to dive out here. Because you aren't doing anything plumber like. There is absolutely no skill involved.
                          And, around here not only do we not sit on jobs waiting for the inspector, but he doesn't ask us what kind of solder/flux/glue that we use.

                          Master is right. The skill involved is non existent. While I'm for better techniques, I don't consider pulling a trigger as a skill. And the speed between the two isn't that big of a deal until you start working with big pipe. Takes what ten seconds to solder a 1/2 inch fitting? I'm not ever in such a rush that I'm just sprinting and slinging crap around to get something done. I've always got time, to take the time, to do it right. And still make a profit.
                          Last edited by stolen; 06-02-2012, 11:01 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                            Originally posted by ironranger View Post
                            I'm glad they are high priced and I hope they stay high for obvious reasons.
                            Why? Because that is how you distinguish yourself from a hack?

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                            • #29
                              Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                              Originally posted by ironranger View Post
                              I'm glad they are high priced and I hope they stay high for obvious reasons.
                              So why is that?

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                              • #30
                                Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                                I will wade in here as well

                                I agree that the Propress has a place in repair work, so does a Sharkbite... Would I use either one for new installations nope.

                                The debate we are in revolves around the difference between being a good plumber and being a good businessman, these are two very separate things.

                                As a Master Plumber do I see a place for the Propress in my truck, Hell yes it is a great time saver and some places are a nightmare to solder not to mention the whole flux issue (I still have non water soluble flux in my kit), Would I do a whole commercial or residential new install in Propress, No just like I would not use Sharkebites. If you can't tell I consider Propress fittings and Sharkebite fittings as the same thing (remembering that no matter how much you squeeze it a Sharkbite and a Propress fitting seal the same way as far as I can tell).

                                As a Businessman I have to keep up with the trends and changes in the business for better and for worse, I am in business to make money and provide for my family. If the trend is to use Propress and all of the authorities have given it a blessing and I have to compete I will use it, I can still not like it but I can only go against the flow for so long before my job as the provider is threatened.

                                Is Propress being pushed to replace skilled Tradesmen, Yes, Does that mean if you use a Propress you are not a skilled Tradesmen nope. The trend in the trade skills is simpler is better and all of our plumbing processes are going down the same path. Unfortunately faster=simpler, In our quest as Tradesmen and businessmen to be better / faster / more profitable we have been given the products that we have asked for. Better, in limited situations YES / Faster, YES / More Profitable, YES

                                A question only your conscience can answer. If it saves time, are you saving your customers money or are you charging the same or more because you have the "cool tools" or justifying the same cost by saying I saved the customer x hours by doing it my way so I will charge them x-1 hours and give them a perceived savings...

                                I wonder if the old school Master that poured Lead had the same B1tches, Gripes and Complaints with that newfangled PVC pipe and solvent welded joints?
                                Last edited by OkieBill; 06-02-2012, 11:15 AM.

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