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"The Great Propress debate"

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  • #46
    Re: "The Great Propress debate"

    Originally posted by EJW1 View Post
    Just curious, why did you buy one in the first place if its dumbing down the trade?
    Long story involving my brother, a trade show, a promised discount, yadda yadda yadda......and not just one but two
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    • #47
      Re: "The Great Propress debate"

      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
      . The real problem is that Pro-Press is pretty much exclusively used for repair work. Almost nobody is going to use it for an entire piping job for a couple of reasons like the price of copper for one and the price of Pro-Press fittings for two.
      This may be true for houses but we have done whole heating jobs with Pro Press and even with the price of the fittings and copper i did not have to get a burning permit each day and did not have to have some on fire watch . T time it took me to do the job was a lot faster because the job was a big push and had to get done
      So this may not be for every one but i like it
      Charlie

      My seek the peek fundraiser page
      http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


      http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

      new work pictures 12/09
      http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

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      • #48
        Re: "The Great Propress debate"

        They make you get a burning permit to solder pipes?
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        • #49
          Re: "The Great Propress debate"

          [QUOTE=NHMaster3015;377199]
          .



          I would bet a whole lot of money that I can get the same job done in less than an hour without Pro-Press
          i'll take yo up on that bet. i'll pay for the first class flight, first class hotel and first class meal, if you come out here on my dime and show me you can get this done in an hour or less. it's a total of 2- 2.5'' copper couplings, and a 90. 15' straight up in the air. a whole city block of businesses to shut down and drain.

          i know for a fact, it can't be done, the contractor who's hired me and the management company also knows it can't be done in the time constraints they need. that's why they hired me.
          now if you really think sight unseen, you can get it done in an hour, the flight, hotel and meals are on me. when you fail, the tabs on you.

          you sure you want to risk the $2000.00 vacation on a sight unseen job.

          i know for a fact i couldn't get the water to stop dripping in an hour. add in the union and the 2.5'' jet sweet along with the extra joints and prep time, you're well over an hour and that doesn't account for 15' height off the ground. now add in the scissor lift to give you a work platform and then you could have paid for all the material.

          still want to risk the $2000 flight, hotel and meals. if so, mark knows how to get a hold of me.

          i rather doubt too many have the years of experience soldering large bore pipe and fittings. my 15 years of new construction and another (22 years of service) allowed me to work on 6'' copper fittings on a regular basis. being new work, water was seldom a factor and neither was time as the buildings were empty while under construction. back then we had 50/ 50 solder and real flux. today we have decent lead free solder, lousy water soluble flux and lines with water in them.

          you will either be the hero that you think you are or the clown for thinking you can do it. my $2000. bet is with bozo. make me eat my words.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

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          • #50
            Re: "The Great Propress debate"

            If I was more versed in the big stuff, I would take you up on that bet. And the clock would start when I actually cut the line open. All prep can be done during working hours. Plus it would be foolish to waste any of that precious time with thins you can get done with the pipe still together.

            Sounds like it would go something like this. Cut out the 90, jet swet the line to stop flow, solder on a ball valve, then go from there. then would just be a few minutes more putting the 90 on and slip coupling, or union. Site unseen of course. But it sounds plausible!

            2.5 isn't that big. And I'm sure a press would be much better there. But it's not impossible without one I'm assuming. Post up some pictures of this situation. Honestly from your description, it wouldn't be that bad. But I'm assuming it's fifteen foot in the air over a beach full of nekkid super models.

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            • #51
              Re: "The Great Propress debate"

              It seems like Rick is regularly competing with someone about getting something done faster

              A while back when I visited it was who could thread galvanized pipe the quickest. We then learnt that Rick was the Ridgid roundup champion for pipe threading

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              • #52
                Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                Originally posted by stolen View Post
                If I was more versed in the big stuff, I would take you up on that bet. And the clock would start when I actually cut the line open. All prep can be done during working hours. Plus it would be foolish to waste any of that precious time with thins you can get done with the pipe still together.

                Sounds like it would go something like this. Cut out the 90, jet sweet the line to stop flow, solder on a ball valve, then go from there. then would just be a few minutes more putting the 90 on and slip coupling, or union. Site unseen of course. But it sounds plausible!

                2.5 isn't that big. And I'm sure a press would be much better there. But it's not impossible without one I'm assuming. Post up some pictures of this situation. Honestly from your description, it wouldn't be that bad. But I'm assuming it's fifteen foot in the air over a beach full of nekkid super models.
                price out 2- 2.5'' ball valves to isolate the water from both directions. add in the time to prep/ clean flux and solder and prey no water messes with your joints. of course the 15' factor makes safety and accessibility an issue. of course other than reaming the inner and outer, i have no prep time with the press joint. no sanding, fluxing, ball valves, jet sweet, soldering and trying to safely work 15' up in the air with a torch and solder. then tell me it can be done in under an hour with no leaks. almost forgot, you still need a slip coupling or union to fit it all together.

                now add up all the extras, valves, solder, torch and time. you still think you can get it done and compete with a propress when all it takes is 5 seconds to cycle the ram per joint. plus the fittings slip on without fighting the pipe and tolerance.

                rick.
                phoebe it is

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                • #53
                  Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                  Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
                  I did some repair & remodel plumbing work, a few years back, for an out of town co, that does renovations, mostly on franchise style restaurants. They owned their own propress machine, & had a whole grocery cart full of propress ftgs. They were not shy about telling me they do their own plumbing work, most of the time. Only reason they needed me, was cuz they had to get permits. I could tell they had done some of the work, on a 1" copper water line, before I got there, but could not prove it for sure.

                  Only reason I did any work for this co, was the electrician is a good friend of mine. Mostly all their work, is done after the restaurants close at night, so they probably get away without permits, most of the time.
                  Don, this is what is called a "commercial Decision". As most will agree youshould have walked away. However put on the spot at teh same time you were how many would have been driving down the road at high speed????????????????. Yes pressing opens up for diy but the secret is in our training. Not everything is pressing but the future may alter this. PEX, well this is showing problems which will keep us in work for years to come. savings for the HO, not always.

                  Back to the secret, TRAINING. Oh I am bracing for a spanking here, especially from ..........!!!
                  Our training has shown us over many years many methods. It has educated us to think about what we do and how we do. it should have taught us to look befoer we act, decide on a game plan to achieve the ultimate result, a solution to the problem at hand. It should also have taught us confidence, knowlege to know that what we do we are happy to walk away from happy with the solution given. It shgould have taught us to say to the HO/Client it is right now instead of the Aussie saying, "She'll be right mate". This means call me if I stuffed up. It means I am not confident of my professionalism with the exception where we are forced to work with the proverbial sows ear.
                  If the Master trains the Apprentice and the apprentice listens and learns they carry out their trade with confidence. They develop a talent for knowing it is right instead of mascerading as being as talented as a professional and really never being confident enough to say it is right.
                  Sorry for the RANT..............!!!!!! Bring on the spanking.

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                  • #54
                    Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                    They make you get a burning permit to solder pipes?
                    Called a Hot Work Permit here. Includes using grinders and any spark emitting machines. Havent got to the Hot Air guns yet but havent burnt down a building with one here yet.

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                    • #55
                      Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                      [QUOTE=PLUMBER RICK;377253]
                      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post

                      i'll take yo up on that bet. i'll pay for the first class flight, first class hotel and first class meal, if you come out here on my dime and show me you can get this done in an hour or less. it's a total of 2- 2.5'' copper couplings, and a 90. 15' straight up in the air. a whole city block of businesses to shut down and drain.

                      i know for a fact, it can't be done, the contractor who's hired me and the management company also knows it can't be done in the time constraints they need. that's why they hired me.
                      now if you really think sight unseen, you can get it done in an hour, the flight, hotel and meals are on me. when you fail, the tabs on you.

                      you sure you want to risk the $2000.00 vacation on a sight unseen job.

                      i know for a fact i couldn't get the water to stop dripping in an hour. add in the union and the 2.5'' jet sweet along with the extra joints and prep time, you're well over an hour and that doesn't account for 15' height off the ground. now add in the scissor lift to give you a work platform and then you could have paid for all the material.

                      still want to risk the $2000 flight, hotel and meals. if so, mark knows how to get a hold of me.

                      i rather doubt too many have the years of experience soldering large bore pipe and fittings. my 15 years of new construction and another (22 years of service) allowed me to work on 6'' copper fittings on a regular basis. being new work, water was seldom a factor and neither was time as the buildings were empty while under construction. back then we had 50/ 50 solder and real flux. today we have decent lead free solder, lousy water soluble flux and lines with water in them.

                      you will either be the hero that you think you are or the clown for thinking you can do it. my $2000. bet is with bozo. make me eat my words.

                      rick.
                      Rick, can I put 2K on you. Easiest money I could make. Not wanting to be a total smartarse but there are some who actually know and understand this business. There will always be detractors, thise who couldnt cut it as Apprentices and now think a session at The Big Green Shed on saturday morning is all the education you require. I too have worked on similar to you Rick and sight unseen, my money is safe.

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                      • #56
                        Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                        They make you get a burning permit to solder pipes?
                        All the shopping malls we used to work for, required us to get a burning permit, for soldering. A few of them would not allow us to solder during business hours. This included stores we were working on, that were actually not even open yet, but the rest of the mall was open. So we had to do it at night. Now I'm not a big fan of propress either, but I bet if you had this situation, those 2 propress machines you got, would be getting the dust off them, real fast.

                        I can definetely see propress in commercial applications, & for quick shut downs, so as not to cause too much interuption to a business, especially like a hospital. But I can't see it being any benefit in residential, with mostly 3/4" & 1/2" water piping. JMO

                        Only thing I can't get past, is that rubber O ring. I mean, isn't that going to rot out, or leak prematurely? Especially on a hot water line. Take apart a faucet, & you got O rings that crumble in your hand, why is this propress O ring any different?

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                        • #57
                          Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                          Rick, you have 15 years experience working industrial, I have 39. 2 1/2" pipe is little stuff. take a picture of the situation and get back to me.
                          sigpic

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                          • #58
                            Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                            Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
                            All the shopping malls we used to work for, required us to get a burning permit, for soldering. A few of them would not allow us to solder during business hours. This included stores we were working on, that were actually not even open yet, but the rest of the mall was open. So we had to do it at night. Now I'm not a big fan of propress either, but I bet if you had this situation, those 2 propress machines you got, would be getting the dust off them, real fast.

                            I can definetely see propress in commercial applications, & for quick shut downs, so as not to cause too much interuption to a business, especially like a hospital. But I can't see it being any benefit in residential, with mostly 3/4" & 1/2" water piping. JMO

                            Only thing I can't get past, is that rubber O ring. I mean, isn't that going to rot out, or leak prematurely? Especially on a hot water line. Take apart a faucet, & you got O rings that crumble in your hand, why is this propress O ring any different?
                            Don; for that situation I probably would use one but my point is that any job can be done without one. Basically Rick is saying that if Pro-Press had never been invented then all these jobs could never be done and that's just not true. I'll even admit that maybe, just maybe it might take more than an hour also but I still believe it can be done within the time constraints. 15' up is two sections of staging (yes a scissor lift would be easier but cost more) We do large commercial and industrial all the time. Right now the crew is working on two new industrial manufacturing buildings and the addition on another. Some of the piping in these buildings is 4 and 6" and 90% of it is a good 15' off the ground. We do high pressure steam and gas piping as well for commercial applications and just last year piped over 1000' of 4" welded high pressure steel for a steam generator running 200 lbs. And all that time the Pro-Press sits on the shelf. If someone were to bid new commercial, say 2 and 3" copper for an industrial job here using Pro-Press they would bid themselves right out of the market because although there is some time savings (note I said time not labor ) The cost of the fittings would kill any chance of making a buck against soldering. Nobody here is in that much of a hurry. Believe me, I have run the numbers many many times and it always skews in favor of old school. Rick does not believe that but Rick does mostly service work. Rick does not have a crew of 13 guys at his disposal and by himself can't take on large jobs like we can. If he did, he would run the numbers also and most likely come to the same conclusion.

                            And hey, what's all this nonsense about water soluble flux? I buy it by the case. We all use the stuff. You can't get it in California?

                            Rick; Remember the bet was that it can't be done in the the time constraint, not that it could be done as fast as using the press.
                            Last edited by NHMaster3015; 06-03-2012, 09:48 AM.
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                            • #59
                              Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                              Rick, you have 15 years experience working industrial, I have 39. 2 1/2" pipe is little stuff. take a picture of the situation and get back to me.
                              that's 15 years of large scale new construction plumbing with a crew and another 22 years of service on my own. that being said, i should know what it takes to get the job done. 6 days a week with no employees, i'm able to do everything by myself. including 100 gallon heaters up and downstairs.

                              tell me the last time you actually picked up the tools and worked on this type of repair? you have 14 vans and a full time teaching position. do you actually still get in the field and perform this type of work on a regular basis?

                              i still have the $2000 offer if you can do it in under an hour by yourself.

                              rick.



                              the bottom of the 2.5'' 90 is 15' straight up. that concrete is a beam to lean the ladder against. i don't think there is enough play in the pipe without a slip x slip coupling. as you can see, there is no hurry to jump on the leak as it only drip a couple drops a minute in a parking structure. so clear your schedule for next week or the following week. they can wait for the pro to show.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by PLUMBER RICK; 06-03-2012, 09:59 AM.
                              phoebe it is

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                              • #60
                                Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                                Last time I picked up tools........................Hmmmmmmmmm........... .................Yesterday. Helped one of the guys finish up a GW Heat pump job on York beach. I still work and I do 90% of the estimation for anything commercial. No, I don't pick up tools as often as I used to and neither do I want too.

                                Gawd, this sucks. I'm still teaching for the next two weeks and the week after that I'm at the Skills Competition in Kansas City but I sure would love to take a crack at that. I'm sticking with an hour. Do your "really" think that it can't be done in an hour? Really? How about the rest of yu guys?
                                Last edited by NHMaster3015; 06-03-2012, 10:10 AM.
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