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"The Great Propress debate"

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  • #61
    Re: "The Great Propress debate"

    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
    Don; for that situation I probably would use one but my point is that any job can be done without one. Basically Rick is saying that if Pro-Press had never been invented then all these jobs could never be done and that's just not true. I'll even admit that maybe, just maybe it might take more than an hour also but I still believe it can be done within the time constraints. 15' up is two sections of staging (yes a scissor lift would be easier but cost more) We do large commercial and industrial all the time. Right now the crew is working on two new industrial manufacturing buildings and the addition on another. Some of the piping in these buildings is 4 and 6" and 90% of it is a good 15' off the ground. We do high pressure steam and gas piping as well for commercial applications and just last year piped over 1000' of 4" welded high pressure steel for a steam generator running 200 lbs. And all that time the Pro-Press sits on the shelf. If someone were to bid new commercial, say 2 and 3" copper for an industrial job here using Pro-Press they would bid themselves right out of the market because although there is some time savings (note I said time not labor ) The cost of the fittings would kill any chance of making a buck against soldering. Nobody here is in that much of a hurry. Believe me, I have run the numbers many many times and it always skews in favor of old school. Rick does not believe that but Rick does mostly service work. Rick does not have a crew of 13 guys at his disposal and by himself can't take on large jobs like we can. If he did, he would run the numbers also and most likely come to the same conclusion.

    And hey, what's all this nonsense about water soluble flux? I buy it by the case. We all use the stuff. You can't get it in California?

    Rick; Remember the bet was that it can't be done in the the time constraint, not that it could be done as fast as using the press.
    the bet you made is that you can do it in under 1 hour. no one expects you to beat my propress time.

    now add in your 2 stages of scaffolding and the time it takes to set it up and tear it down. you're looking at a long night. earliest shut down is 12 midnight and they reopen at 5:30 am. that gives you 5.5 hours, but you can get it done in 1

    your comment about water soluble flux has changed from the last time i posted as you didn't use it as required. along with 90% of the members here.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

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    • #62
      Re: "The Great Propress debate"

      How about you figure in his travel time too then Rick?

      The bet should be from the time the pipe is cut, to the time water is back on. I mean really. Everyone knows press prep is the shortest of all save pex. And all prep work can be during businesses hours without interrupting anything. ****, it can even be done on a Saturday. The point I'm seeing you try to make is that only a pro press can do this in under a hour. As in the actual repair. Why factor in everything else? I don't know either of you. Never met you guys. But I'm quite certain you both know your ****.

      I would be honored to be either one of your apprentices. Even though I'm fully licensed and have been running a truck for about seven years now, I could spend the rest of my life under either of you and never stop learning.

      I'd wager NH can do the actual repair in under a hour. I'd also wager that you can do it in a tenth of Ooothe time. **** I think I could do it in the time constraints, but probably not under a hour. If guys are rolling belly up to you, it's because they are lazy. I would gladly bid against you here and have just as satisfied of customers.

      And as for not understand the businesses, and this bullshit that is getting spewed about the best, that's a very arrogant and ignorant mindset about pro press. And it actually is bad business to lie to your customers like that. I'm willing to bet all of your stub outs are either copper or pex. That's not the best. Do you charge the same or more because you have a pro press now? If you do you are just a licensed hack. It takes no skill, or training to run, and it's so fast if you can sleep at night charging more, then you are a con man.

      And as for the high price of it. Please don't think you are a special flower because it's expensive and you have one. You know what the average guy likes? Tools. I know guys that buy the best simply because, it's the best and they wouldn't feel right working on their kids bike with anything less than snap on. Pro press is the laziest way to run copper. If you had the passion I do about plumbing, you would spend more time doing work, and less time hiking up your prices and doing inferior repairs. I absolutely love plumbing. And I enjoy taking my time to do the absolute best job I can fathom doing every time I step foot on a job. Speed and profit are the last things on my mind. Although both come naturally without even having a press. I want someone to remember me for how good my work is. I want the service plumber that has to come after me have the easiest time fixing whatever the problem is. I strive to install plumbing that will bio degrade, not wear out. So to make the remark that any of us in this discussion don't know the business is the dumbest thing I've seen on this forum.

      Come down. Work with me. I consider myself among the best. And I will show you quality plumbing has nothing to do with a pro press. Let me show you that honest men are still in the profession. Men that are happy leaving their art behind. I would GLADLY work for free if I didn't have to support a family and pay bills. But I'm still learning. And I'll never stop. I'll go from shop to shop to learn from everyone.

      Rant over son! I'm going to step out of this discussion. Dint want to further offend anyone, and just to be clear I didn't intend to anyone, if I did!

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      • #63
        Re: "The Great Propress debate"

        " And I enjoy taking my time to do the absolute best job I can fathom doing every time I step foot on a job. Speed and profit are the last things on my mind"
        " Let me show you that honest men are still in the profession. Men that are happy leaving their art behind. I would GLADLY work for free if I didn't have to support a family and pay bills"


        We've all been there and thought the same way when we were new at this game. As time goes on and you get older you will feel different, I guarantee it. Our labor flat rate hasn't changed since using propress, our material charge has gone up of course. The difference is we get the jobs done faster and we're more efficient which brings in more profit for the company.
        To tell other professional plumbers that they're ripping off their customers and not being honest because they use propress is just wrong.
        Last edited by ironranger; 06-03-2012, 10:43 PM.

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        • #64
          Re: "The Great Propress debate"

          Fishing was good this weekend. Caught a mess of Walleye, good eats!

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: "The Great Propress debate"

            Originally posted by stolen View Post
            It's not exactly a great debate.

            it gets kind of old seeing legendary plumbers, advocating this tool.

            All this talk about a better connection. No, that's not why you use it. It's because it's fast. If you were striving for the best, you would be hard piping brass in. it's just about speed. And I understand there are times when it's a home run. But, I've not noticed any situation where I said, well shoot. I can't do this without a pro press.

            you may be able to lie to the average home owner, but why are you bringing that bullshit here?

            If I wanted the "best" the water piping in my house would be K copper with silver solder joints. (It's type L with lead free solder) The propress is clearly about speed. Especially when water is dripping / running.

            The one concern I do have about propress is the crimp. I wonder if the deformation of the pipe will create localized turbulence which will wear through the sidewall over time. (Far less time than the 50 year warranty)
            Time flies like an arrow.

            Fruit flies like a banana.

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            • #66
              Re: "The Great Propress debate"

              Originally posted by ironranger View Post
              Fishing was good this weekend. Caught a mess of Walleye, good eats!

              I'll be the judge if they're good eating or not. "Sigh" Bring'em on down and I'll try'em out to see if they really stack up as you claim. If you're contemplating not bring some down for errrr testing see below.








              Your honor is at stake sir, so I don't want any hemming or hawing now so you better just bring some of them on down.
              Time flies like an arrow.

              Fruit flies like a banana.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                Originally posted by ironranger View Post
                Fishing was good this weekend. Caught a mess of Walleye, good eats!
                We don't get walleye here which is a damn shame. I used to fish them when I lived in Michigan. They are good eats indeed.

                I also agree with you on the "ripping off customers" I don't see it like that either.
                sigpic

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                • #68
                  Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                  [QUOTE]I don't think that will be a problem unless very high velocities are present.
                  sigpic

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                  • #69
                    Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                    We don't get walleye here which is a damn shame. I used to fish them when I lived in Michigan. They are good eats indeed.

                    I also agree with you on the "ripping off customers" I don't see it like that either.
                    Now days we just fry them slow in a little olive oil and spices. Don't do the batter thing much unless we're at a fish fry. Also caught a couple of good size Northern Pike but threw them back, I hate cleaning them things but when I do keep them I cut them in bite size pieces and boil them in 7up. Then dip them in a butter garlic sauce after they're cooked and turn white. You can do this with any white fish. We call it poor mans lobster and it's really good stuff.
                    Yea I don't think anyone is "ripping off" anyone just because they use propress. A company charges what it charges and I don't see what that has to do with propress or any other materials you use.

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                    • #70
                      Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                      Last time I picked up tools........................Hmmmmmmmmm........... .................Yesterday. Helped one of the guys finish up a GW Heat pump job on York beach. I still work and I do 90% of the estimation for anything commercial. No, I don't pick up tools as often as I used to and neither do I want too.

                      Gawd, this sucks. I'm still teaching for the next two weeks and the week after that I'm at the Skills Competition in Kansas City but I sure would love to take a crack at that. I'm sticking with an hour. Do your "really" think that it can't be done in an hour? Really? How about the rest of yu guys?
                      NH.
                      Based on what I've gleaned from Ricks comments and the pic of the work. You're toast. I think you'd have better chance with Victaulic.

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                      • #71
                        Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                        We don't get walleye here which is a damn shame. I used to fish them when I lived in Michigan. They are good eats indeed.

                        I also agree with you on the "ripping off customers" I don't see it like that either.
                        Come west young man! They are in the connecticut river. April is best.
                        26+6=1

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                        • #72
                          Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                          This isn't much of a debate anymore. More of a pissing contest if you ask me. Have a great week.
                          Last edited by ironranger; 06-03-2012, 10:38 PM.

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                          • #73
                            Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                            Originally posted by ArizonaPlumber View Post
                            NH.
                            Based on what I've gleaned from Ricks comments and the pic of the work. You're toast. I think you'd have better chance with Victaulic.
                            i also own copper victaulic and have used it on 6'' copper when the so called big repair shop had a 27 story high rise shut down for 2 straight days no water. this is with 4 guys there trying to solder a 6'' main that wouldn't stop dripping.

                            i show up by myself with the right tool and fittings and complete the job by myself in a matter of hours. that was well over 15 years ago.

                            victaulic would work with water, but it would take much longer than propress and be pretty awkward 15' in the air trying to support the tool and roll grove the inlet and outlet. not to mention the fittings would cost more than the press fittings.

                            of course anything above 4'' would be a good call as the limits to press fittings are 4''.

                            i do see more and more vic work on large bore copper. but i see even more propress than vic work 4'' and smaller. my 4 local supply house stock press fittings, but not victaulic. it's special order.

                            i also own 4 t-drills but haven't used them in years. they pretty much paid for themselves on the first job alone. do you know what a 6'' x 2'' copper tee cost and the time it takes to sand flux and solder 2 extra 6'' joints compared to just brazing 1- 2'' socket. now multiply that by the hundreds of tees used on a large scale apartment, hotel or office complex. sure brazing alloy cost a pretty penny now, but so does solder, flux, prep and labor.

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                              Rick,
                              For me, it's a given that the ProPress would smoke NH or anyone else, with solder joints. I was looking at Victaulic as the only way possible that he could possibly complete the job in an hour. But that wasn't the bet.

                              As for the ProPress fence sitters and naysayers. Don't buy one or use the one you have.
                              I don't need the competition for those midnight calls that I make a whole ton of money on when a two to four inch line breaks.

                              AP



                              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                              i also own copper victaulic and have used it on 6'' copper when the so called big repair shop had a 27 story high rise shut down for 2 straight days no water. this is with 4 guys there trying to solder a 6'' main that wouldn't stop dripping.

                              i show up by myself with the right tool and fittings and complete the job by myself in a matter of hours. that was well over 15 years ago.

                              victaulic would work with water, but it would take much longer than propress and be pretty awkward 15' in the air trying to support the tool and roll grove the inlet and outlet. not to mention the fittings would cost more than the press fittings.

                              of course anything above 4'' would be a good call as the limits to press fittings are 4''.

                              i do see more and more vic work on large bore copper. but i see even more propress than vic work 4'' and smaller. my 4 local supply house stock press fittings, but not victaulic. it's special order.

                              i also own 4 t-drills but haven't used them in years. they pretty much paid for themselves on the first job alone. do you know what a 6'' x 2'' copper tee cost and the time it takes to sand flux and solder 2 extra 6'' joints compared to just brazing 1- 2'' socket. now multiply that by the hundreds of tees used on a large scale apartment, hotel or office complex. sure brazing alloy cost a pretty penny now, but so does solder, flux, prep and labor.

                              rick.

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                              • #75
                                Re: "The Great Propress debate"

                                Apparently there are only a handful of plumbers here

                                After looking at that picture I double damn guarantee that that job can be done in a hour and from an extension ladder at that. I have done similar and in places a whole lot worse that that over the years. I can only surmise that there are a whole bunch of you that either don't have the skills and experience you say you have or you move at the speed of a three legged turtle. Owning thousands of tools is no replacement for experience. I posted the pic on a professional plumbing forum and other than maybe two guys, everyone else said the same thing I did. Piece of cake. Maybe it's a California thing, I don't know, but for a group of so called professional plumbers you come up pretty darn short. Move back east for a couple years and learn your trade.
                                Last edited by NHMaster3015; 06-04-2012, 05:30 AM.
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