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"The Great Propress debate"

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  • #91
    Re: "The Great Propress debate"

    originally posted by nhmaster on another forum, 78 responses to his question and i doubt 2 people there have anywhere as many years of experience as i do. amazing how a bunch of so called plumbers pat themselves on their backs, yet couldn't work for themselves and stay in business.

    now if you're going to post this, at least post the real truth to the question. never said it was a 5.5 hour job. all i mentioned was the working hours were 12 midnight to 5:30 am. you're the one that stated you could do it in 1 hour or less. you also mentioned no other plumber in town could do it. also a fabrication on your part. the plumber who works for the management co. called me to press it as it's beyond his comfort level to do the job with soldered fittings 15' off the ground.

    of course i can do it with soldered fittings and have many times under much more difficult conditions. given the job at hand, i would be a fool to even think about soldering when i have 10 press machines at my disposal. i have more than 5 different freeze machines too. and yes this is an entire city block. at least 500' long.

    so although you look like a hero on that forum, to me you look like a big liar. and if i had the opportunity and time for you to prove it can be done, i would gladly put the job off for you to come out here and show me what kind of a plumber you really think you are.

    now go ahead and tell your good old boys the real truth to the post and not the real story you want them to hear. amazes me that you know more about a job i describe than i know. dozens on this forum have met me and know i'm for real. i can't really say that about you based on what i've read.

    rick.

    posted by nhmaster

    Quit asking questions.....

    The whole point of this is that another [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]plumber[/COLOR][/COLOR], on another forum is of the belief that Pro-Press is the only way this can possibly be done in less than 5 1/2 hours, which I say is pure BS.

    amazing where you got the no other plumbing companies in the area. considering los angeles propbably has more plumbing companies than any city in the country.

    Great posts Gentlemen and a pretty good confirmation of the abilities of the majority of [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]plumbers[/COLOR][/COLOR] that post on this forum. Thing is I never said that Pro-Press was necessarily a good nor bad way to tackle this repair, only that Pro-Press was not needed. The OP said that he got the job because no other [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]plumbing[/COLOR][/COLOR] companies in the area would even consider doing the job. I say nonsense
    Last edited by PLUMBER RICK; 06-05-2012, 01:19 AM.
    phoebe it is

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    • #92
      Re: "The Great Propress debate"

      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
      last time i checked, the majority of soldered joints from 20 years ago still had lead. and the flux still had acid. acid flux is responsible for at least 1/2 the pin hole leaks i go to fix. even today as i've stated, the majority of non inspected work is being done with non water soluble flux illegally. even the supply house openly displays that flux.

      there is no comparison of the quality of fittings. long sweep turns and type k or thicker copper. compared to short sweep and type m fittings. lay a 90 side by side. put them on a scale. then tell me there is no difference.

      fire is a big factor in your liability insurance policy. jobs burn down every year due to plumbers and welders.

      the excuse that a plumber can't afford a tool is ridiculous. almost everyone owns a camera and that's 2 to 3 times the cost of a press tool. the ones i've rented too have purchased their own tool after seeing the advantages of the tool.

      not sure what you specialize in, but for me, service of large condos, commercial buildings and not having to sit and wait for the water to stop draining is the difference between me getting the job and another company bidding the same job.

      next week i have a 2.5'' copper repair that's 15' straight up in a large commercial center, entire city block. the hours of operation are 530am to 12 midnight. that leaves very little time to properly shut off and drain the water, and restart all the systems. with propress i can cut the copper and already assemble it while the water is still draining. 2 couplings and a 90 can be pressed in 2 minutes 15' off the ground on a ladder with absolutely no chance of a leak, with water running. try that with flux and solder. this isn't even my customer. it's another plumbers customer who refereed it to me.

      rick.
      [QUOTE=NHMaster3015;377199]
      .



      I would bet a whole lot of money that I can get the same job done in less than an hour without Pro-Press


      just so you can see my original post that you responded to.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: "The Great Propress debate"

        I don't do much commercial work, but a couple of years ago, I had to replace a 4 foot section of 2" pipe in a major high rise apartment building. The pipe was about 8 ft high, so that really wasn't an issue.

        It was on the first floor, so there were no floor drains for the water to drain too.

        The repair took us a little over 2 hours and we used 1 - 2" ball valve & 1 - 2" union. We don't have any freeze equipment, nor knew where to even rent one, so a jet-swet was the answer for us.

        The drain down was the reason why it took so long, as there was no give in the pipe to get the jet-swet in the Union side. (opposite valve we installed)

        Could Rick's job be done under an hour doing it the old way? I never used a freeze machine, so I know nothing about them, but if it's jet-swet only, I say No.

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        • #94
          Re: "The Great Propress debate"

          I fight in a cage for fun, but I am frightened to wade in here...
          The draindown locations, if any, other than cutting through the leaking elbow, would dictate whether the job could be done in <1hr.
          Also how much you are willing to grapple with a jet swet or test ball on a ladder against back pressure on a long run.
          Question for Plumber Rick: are the pinhole leaks from acid flux on type L or M pipe?
          Copper leaks are extremely rare here, and we repair leaks on yellow brass and galvanized pipes (very old) daily.
          Even long term installations by us have no problems.(I am not a young man)
          However, water quality is very good here, type L always, and acid flux was used sparingly.

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          • #95
            Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

            on this particular leak, the 90 is dripping a couple drops a minute. the water stain below is less than a foot circle. so it's more of a nuisance leak and not an emergency repair. i would think just a poor soldering job that finally showed itself.

            most pinholes i come across are due to velocity erosions. when you have hot water circulating pumps running 24-7 it's just a matter of time. doesn't matter if it's m or l copper.

            but i do see pin holes in cold lines too. mainly caused by flux that was never washed off the outside and flux still inside that's pasty.

            we have been required to use water soluble flux here for close to 20 years. there's a learning curve with that flux. but for service with water that's trapped or turns to steam, forget about a successful joint. we all know that a clean copper pipe and fitting will never take solder if the flux is missing. all it takes is for a drip of water or a little steam from the heat and there is no flux.

            like i've posted times before, there are those that either don't follow the code or don't know the code. 90% of the guys here still use regular flux the last time i made spoke of this.

            sure give me some regular nokorrode and a decent torch/ tip and i can hold back the water while soldering. sometimes even a second torch to hold back water from passing. steam was never a problem as long as the system had a place to vent.

            i know with good planning i could solder the joint with water soluble flux. but it would take more than 1 hour due to the extra parts and equipment required. remember this is 15' off the ground. you just can't position yourself as easily off a ladder and still feel secure. it's also a 1 man job for me without the need of scaffolding or a scissor lift. both of which i own, but don't need for a pressed repair.

            anyone thinking it's a simple 1 hour repair with solder fittings and water soluble flux will learn a lesson real fast.

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

              I agree that this is a situation where Propress is the logical choice.
              I also own scaffolding, a small boom lift, and a press tool. (REMS)
              BTW: is the REMS any good? Haven't used it much because just recently press fittings have only recently been written into the specs on my jobs.
              I agree that a balance of new technology and time tested methods is correct, with the ability to successfully perform both.
              At least the press fittings are crafted well. How about brass cleanout plugs now? Thinner than a Hershey bar nowadays.
              Maybe I'm strange, but I do not like standard no-hub couplings(we use them, though), especially when Huskies, and Clamp-alls are available.
              I also own and use a t-drill, a must have on a commercial job. The $ savings are even more when branching off a TP copper main.
              I would not bet on the 1 hr. time allowance based on draindown time(and water soluble flux): you can't jam a jet swet if the water is gushing back at you.
              And with the extra fittings need to solder it, there is no cost savings.
              If there is any play with the horizontal pipe, maybe you can do the repair with just one 2 1/2" elbow?

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

                What I would have given for a PROPRESS Today...

                2" Copper flux pinhole 3 feet below grade of 2 story Hotel... The dang water would not stop, water can only be off between check out and check in times (3 hours) and none of the old valves would hold (imagine that)


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                • #98
                  Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

                  But you didn't so I guess you didn't fix it?
                  sigpic

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                  • #99
                    Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

                    Naaaa, I fixed it the old fashioned way and yes it took longer then an hour

                    A Propress would have made the job go a lot quicker, I have no doubt...

                    Can a Propress fitting be placed underground / Direct bury???

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                    • Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

                      I figgured you probably did Okie. Burying depends on your local code.
                      sigpic

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                      • Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

                        Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
                        Naaaa, I fixed it the old fashioned way and yes it took longer then an hour

                        A Propress would have made the job go a lot quicker, I have no doubt...

                        Can a Propress fitting be placed underground / Direct bury???

                        YES... as long as you bury it and pour the concrete really quick!

                        Comment


                        • Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

                          propress is legal underground outside of the structure here. within the structure it has to be rolled copper with no joints or a brazed repair. no solder under concrete within the structure.

                          so for me, outside the structure, a propress fitting is perfectly legal and does stand up to the dirt. but our codes don't allow for press or soft soldered joints within the structure underground.

                          rick.
                          phoebe it is

                          Comment


                          • Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

                            Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
                            Naaaa, I fixed it the old fashioned way and yes it took longer then an hour

                            A Propress would have made the job go a lot quicker, I have no doubt...

                            Can a Propress fitting be placed underground / Direct bury???
                            Did you get paid for the extra time?
                            Buy cheap, buy twice.

                            Comment


                            • Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

                              Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                              Did you get paid for the extra time?
                              The repair is the easy part, Locating the leak in the smallest footprint possible / Demo and turnkey reinstall absorbs any "extra time" so I guess the answer is Yes, I will be paid for my "Time"

                              Comment


                              • Re: &quot;The Great Propress debate&quot;

                                Rick is it to late to get in on the bet ? I think I can do it in less than an hour I will use this stuff Amazon.com: Swift Response FSR20 Liquid Rubber Sealant & Coating - Stop Leaks Fast!, As Seen On TV, 2 Pack: Home Improvement , but you only get a tailgate warranty.

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