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Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

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  • #16
    Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

    thanks everyone... it's great to have a place like this to come and ask a question ...great place and great people
    Plumber punky I've seen a septics fail from the salt... back in the 80's everyone was putting in filtration systems and piping the backwash tubing into the washing machine stand pipe... worked good for 15 years or so... but in the 90's lots of septics were failing... Massachusetts had to put in the code that this was not allowed and it should be piped outside and not near the well or septic. ...the ones I saw that failed I'd get a call to snake the main and would tell the customer the tank was full the salt killed the bacteria and nothing was breaking down so solids would get into the D box? ( I don't know a lot about septic systems) so I would check the backwash... it would be set to daily and piped into the washing machine drain.... they would tell me they are pumping the tank a few times a year??? and using bags and bags of salt a week.... but the water was PERFECT! after moving the backwash drain tubing to outside onto the ground having a septic guy clean the D box and what they could clean...then using lots of enzimes some of the customers can go a few years without pumping the tank now. .... other customer had a cesspool and the solids never broke down and pushed into the walls... the water would never leach out any more.
    NHMASTER3015 thank you for the website... I'll look at it later... but I agree... I just don't know if the new systems they make without salt really work... so many rip offs out there... but it's great to have this site like this and see what people are putting in and what works and what doesn't.
    cheesehead plumber.... the potasium cloride could be an idea.... I don't know what happened that she wants NO filtration system at all ..but the HORROR on her face when she told me she would not do that again made me not want to even know......
    again thanks for all the suggestions and help everyone. .... but I think I'll just run away... I don't want to be a tester of systems that no one else is using.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

      Cheesehead Plumber... thanks for the suggestion of the hellenbrand iron curtain... I'll look into it... but I was really hoping to hear how many plumber were installing them and not having any problems or call backs... glad your fathers works good... but I'm a little scared to tell a customer it will work and find out it might not work... the brine tank systems... I know they work great and I'll stick with them.
      but thank you I'll look into them

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

        Originally posted by Any Small Job Plumbing View Post
        ..the ones I saw that failed I'd get a call to snake the main and would tell the customer the tank was full the salt killed the bacteria and nothing was breaking down so solids would get into the D box? ( I don't know a lot about septic systems) so I would check the backwash... it would be set to daily and piped into the washing machine drain.... they would tell me they are pumping the tank a few times a year??? and using bags and bags of salt a week....
        bold #1 - there are numerous bacteria that function quite well in a salt or brackish environment. solids only get into the d-box when tanks arent maintained as they should be

        bold #2 - NO system should use bags and bags of salt every week. that's indicative of a system set up incorrectly.

        cesspools arent really good for a lot of reasons. most of them were glorified outhouse holes that didnt work very well. many many people all over the USA have salt softeners that are set up correctly and dont have this problem. i have one, my dad has one. i have a standard leach bed, my dad a sand filter. i have 4 parts of iron (lots) and 35 grains of hardness , he has 2 parts iron and 17 grains hardness. neither he nor i have ever had any kind of septic failure because of a softener. im not arguing with you, im just saying that there are other issues most likely involved in your situations that you may not be able to verify, and also that technology and education has changed.

        p.s. my well is 30 feet deep and located in the cow pasture where the cows crap on the wellhead.
        ~~

        ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

          Originally posted by Any Small Job Plumbing View Post
          well I typed in salt less iron removal systems and found a lot on line.... (isin't the internet great?) I can't see it working either... but don't know anything about them they all "sound" great... her real problem is no place to run the discharge from the systems backwash... anyplace in the back of the yard will go into the septic anyplace in the front will go into the well. and with her amount of iron I think it may need to backwash daily!!!! I think I'll just show her how to clean stuff.... but thanks Plumber Punky I hate installing magic parts.
          I see you are MA is the septic tank an ATU? (2) ways to tell it will have electric running to it & there should be a control panel with the manufature's name on it in line of sight of the tank.
          If she has an ATU no manufactures will warranty there tank if has a water treatment system back washing into it.
          Simple fix put in the back yard a small concrete 2' x 2' x 2' with no bottom box ( you should be able to get this from any precaster) run the discharge to it. This little bit of water will not cause a properly functioning drain field to fail.

          The problem with water treatment systems back washing into ATU septic tanks is these tanks work best with lots of solids & small amounts of water.
          The back wash introduces more water & the chemicals interfear with the biological process that takes place in the tank.
          ATU's actually break down the solids where as a normal septic tank is nothing more than a holding tank that drains to a drain field.

          The other problem with salts being discharged into a concrete tank is if the manufacture used aggregates that have a combined total ASR content above 0.1 the salts will cause the concrete to fail.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

            Water softeners use salt. Iron filters use either Potassium Permangenate , Chlorine or air to oxidize the iron so the Manganese greensand or what ever media is used can trap it. Softeners do remove some iron, but never all of it. In my opinion, softeners should soften water and iron filters should be used to remove iron. Get the iron out first and the softener will last much longer.

            There is a fairly new filter (or head) that draws air each night to oxidize not only iron, but sulphur (rotten egg odor) too. It's made by Fleck and works very nicely.

            The salt free softeners actually use Potassium Chloride instead of Sodium Chloride (salt) so that's how they make the Salt Free claim. The magnetic units are a joke, but you would be amazed at how many people fall for them.

            I have never heard of the salt from a softener ruining a septic tank, but I guess anything is possible. The amount of salt that is used should be minute.
            Frequently asked questions about pumps and tanks.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

              Originally posted by speedbump View Post
              Softeners do remove some iron, but never all of it.

              The salt free softeners actually use Potassium Chloride instead of Sodium Chloride (salt) so that's how they make the Salt Free claim.
              From personal experience and testing, my system has 4 parts of iron. A basic water softener with no additives in the brine tank removes all of the iron. There are other types of iron in water that a standard softener may not remove. Advanced water testing is needed to determine these types of iron.

              Potassium Chloride (KCl) is an ionic salt. Using it and claiming you have a salt-free system would be a blatant lie. It is typically used because some people think it has health benefits and also because some others have medical sensitivities to the sodium ion.
              ~~

              ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

                Whirl softeners will remove iron in doing so you have to increase both salt and water usage and the resin will require periodic cleaning with products like Resup or iron out.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

                  Potassium Chloride (KCl) is an ionic salt. Using it and claiming you have a salt-free system would be a blatant lie. It is typically used because some people think it has health benefits and also because some others have medical sensitivities to the sodium ion.
                  Yes it is a blatant lie, but show me a salt free softener that used neither sodium or potassium chloride that removes anything and I'll become a believer. I know some people think sodium will kill you so they are willing to use something else that may or may not be worse for them. Salt is about 1/3rd the price of Potassium Chloride. The salt setting on the softener has to be set much higher because the Potassium does a much lesser job of ion exchange than salt.

                  If you truly have 4 parts of Iron, I seriously doubt any softener will remove it all, but hey, I'm not there to test your water. I have sold Iron Filters for a lot of years and they do a great job, but I would never tell anybody that they will remove ALL of the iron, let alone make that statement about a water softener. I have tested softeners with regular resin, fine mesh resin and fine mesh resin and other items combined on my own water in several different dwellings I have lived in. Hoping that I could make one unit do it all. I have been totally unsuccessful so far. So if you have the the right mix, I would love to know what it is.
                  Frequently asked questions about pumps and tanks.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

                    naturally mined ore, Pyrolox
                    speedbump i really enjoying your post about softener and iron filters and their different applications,,,,foundthis info on Fleck website
                    ® is a

                    mineral form of manganese dioxide

                    which has been used in water treatment

                    for more than 75 years. Pyrolox is a

                    granular filtration media for hydrogen

                    sulfide, iron and manganese reduction.

                    Pyrolox functions as a catalyst, but itself

                    remains relatively unchanged.

                    Pyrolox works on a principle whereby

                    the hydrogen sulfide, iron and

                    manganese are oxidized and trapped on

                    the media while simple backwashing

                    cleans the bed. No chemical regeneration

                    is required, nothing is imparted into the

                    drinking water and Pyrolox has a high

                    capacity for low contaminant concentrations.

                    Pyrolox can be used in conjunction with

                    aeration, chlorination, ozone or other

                    pretreatment methods for difficult

                    applications. Chlorine or other oxidants

                    accelerate the catalytic reaction

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

                      I've heard of Pyrolox but have never used it. The big thing in any given area is the actual water's chemistry. What works good in one area, might not work so good in another area. It's kind of a hit and miss until you get it right. We have figured out what works in our area, but it might not work in another. I have really gotten into these new Fleck heads that draw air every night to oxidize which eliminates chlorine and potassium permangenate to oxidize sulphur and iron. Totally chem free and much less problems.
                      Frequently asked questions about pumps and tanks.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

                        i agree with you mr. speedbump every area has its own unique water, im glad to hear that someone else has heard about iron removal without salt or chemicals,,,, in wisconsin almost all plumbers-water conditioning guys use the hellenbrand iron curtain,no salt or chemicals

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

                          Originally posted by speedbump View Post
                          If you truly have 4 parts of Iron, I seriously doubt any softener will remove it all, but hey, I'm not there to test your water. I have sold Iron Filters for a lot of years and they do a great job, but I would never tell anybody that they will remove ALL of the iron, let alone make that statement about a water softener. I have tested softeners with regular resin, fine mesh resin and fine mesh resin and other items combined on my own water in several different dwellings I have lived in. Hoping that I could make one unit do it all. I have been totally unsuccessful so far. So if you have the the right mix, I would love to know what it is.
                          I only know what I live with. Before I moved in 4 years ago grandma lived here. The softener was installed in 2000. She had a sensitivity to Iron Out, as found by the installer at the time. As pointed out, it was to enhance the iron removal process. No one else could taste it, but she could. The entire system had to get torn out and replaced (LOL). I swear she could smell it before the bottle pulled onto her road.

                          At any rate, the system has had no iron out or resin buster salt added, per the landlord's request (the mother-in-law ). I do the bi-annual maintenance and basic water test. Raw, treated, pH, iron, hardness, etc. The original installed of the system sent the water out to a lab for testing. I don't have that report. I also don't have the makeup of the internals of the tank - the resin sizes, types or quantities. We use the Morton salt crystals in the blue bag.

                          The faucets and fixtures have no mineral deposits. There is no iron staining in any tub or toilet. I could post a picture of what 4 parts of iron does to the landlord's white shower. It was new just a few years ago. But I'm sure you can picture what I'm talking about - the nastiest rustiest Pinto in the junkyard.

                          I agree with you that every installation is different. I tell my customers what my experiences have been with other customers and installations. We start with a basic water test, and then a more extensive one if needed. Most of my customers want just the basics - hardness removal, iron removal is secondary. My household is lucky - we dont have sulfur or hydrocarbons (oil droplets and natural gas). Finding the right combination for the customer's needs is not always easy.

                          Edit: I forgot - Can't wait to see these new heads you talk about. They sound much more advanced than what has been around for so long.
                          Last edited by Plumber Punky; 02-26-2013, 10:23 PM.
                          ~~

                          ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

                            thank you Plumber Punky... you certainly know your stuff.... I was always told the salt was killing it. maybe not.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

                              make sure you listen to the other people here too. they know as much or more than i do. these forums are a great place to learn, share ideas, and solve problems
                              ~~

                              ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Salt-less Iron Removal anyone try one???

                                Originally posted by MR.FUDD View Post
                                I see you are MA is the septic tank an ATU? (2) ways to tell it will have electric running to it & there should be a control panel with the manufature's name on it in line of sight of the tank.
                                If she has an ATU no manufactures will warranty there tank if has a water treatment system back washing into it.
                                Simple fix put in the back yard a small concrete 2' x 2' x 2' with no bottom box ( you should be able to get this from any precaster) run the discharge to it. This little bit of water will not cause a properly functioning drain field to fail.

                                The problem with water treatment systems back washing into ATU septic tanks is these tanks work best with lots of solids & small amounts of water.
                                The back wash introduces more water & the chemicals interfear with the biological process that takes place in the tank.
                                ATU's actually break down the solids where as a normal septic tank is nothing more than a holding tank that drains to a drain field.

                                The other problem with salts being discharged into a concrete tank is if the manufacture used aggregates that have a combined total ASR content above 0.1 the salts will cause the concrete to fail.
                                thank you MR Fudd as I said and as it shows... I know very little about septic systems.... but the ones that I saw fail did not have any electric to it. I know we have tight tanks which is just basicly storage tanks for houses without much land or on the water.... good idea about the 2X2X2 pit thank you.

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