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  • #16
    Re: Pulled out another tankless

    It all comes down to this , all this women wanted was a hot bath and a tank will give it to her.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Pulled out another tankless

      I have taken out 6 tankless in the last 3 months and went back with tanked. 3 we're perfect installs according to the manufacturer. They were not sure why they leaked. At the time of install the manufacturer (Eternal) had a 20 year warranty and we were told in writing "this unit was made for hard water, we are headquartered in Tx and it was built for this". Now they have a 15 year warranty and have an exclusion about hard water. Put in a 75 gallon and be done. I am slowly making back the $65,000 I lost in call backs. I remember installing takagi and meeting with the engineers. 3 different classes. I was told in 2003, hard water is fine. They even said you could tie it into existing b-vent because our atmosphere in Texas was good. Said nothing about descaling. We were told to install them and forget about them for 15 years. I still used stainless vent because they wouldn't put that in writing. Then later on they came up with the condensation tee in the vent. Wouldn't cover units that leaked unless we changed that. Also, told us to tell the customer to flush it every year. Customers were mad. They had been cleaning the screen every three months, but thought I was trying to scam them with the flushing. I am listed on several tankless sites as a repair plumber but none of them send me install updates or useful information. It's cheaper and faster to replace the units with a tank rather than play grab *** with the manufacturer. We had a takagi fail for a customer (not my install). It took the manufacturer 12 days to get them a new unit. My family would kill me, if they had to wait that long. Customer decided at day 8 to listen to me and we put tanks in, and now has a new tankless with a little bit if warranty left for sale in eBay. I bought in to the tankless lies for 15 years. I thought they were getting better, but that has not been my experience. It's just business, and I would rather install a tank and do three other jobs that day then spend a day and a half messing around with a Stupid tankless install. FYI, I have several digital manometers, a combustion analyzer, a custom built gas volume tool, and have been sizing gas using charts for 22 years. I can program a router, wire phone lines, and set the time on a 1980's VCR. I can rebuild a windmill, install a 1,000,000 btu boiler, pass a petroleum certified welding test, hook up three phase sewer pumps, and a whole of other stuff, but I can't make tankless work in this north Texas area. I looked at building my one, but I can't get a UL rating and get through all of the codes unless I spend $250,000 and even then it is a less than 10% chance. I can go to South Korea and have my design built for $14,000 and then place the orders through them. Our government will then rubber stamp it and I can sell them. But then if they steal my design and pirate it out because they don't care about U.S. Patent laws, i could sue them, but I would be 95 years old before I won. So, forgive me for being bitter, but the tankless industry can kiss my hot ***, because I just got out of a hot shower that was heated from a Tanked type water heater, and I wish I would have never put tankless in for any of my customers. I hope it really is just me that has the problems, and I wish all of you that install them luck, you are going to need it.
      "don't put that in your mouth, you don't know where it's been"

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Pulled out another tankless

        I'm surprised. One, that someone could set the time on an 80's vcr and two, that there are so many problems with tankless heaters out there. I make too much money off them to quit installing them.

        David

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Pulled out another tankless

          Jay, I too feel the same about tankless. But I dont have anywhere near the hands on that you have with them. Reason why is I never took the bait. I took the noritz class and purchased a heater at cost for my personal use. The $5.00 a month in gas savings doesn't cover the lost water wait time, the cycling of the heater when the HE washer is filling and all the added cost of installing and maintaining.

          Their claims were too good to be true and like everything else, if it's too good to believe, don't believe it.

          I'm sure on the same page as you jay, it's just you already finished the book and I'm still reading. Soon enough it will be a book every plumber will read.

          Thanks for telling it like it is.

          Rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Pulled out another tankless

            Talk to your local distributor about A.O. smith's ATI 540. It is the tankless that finally got me on board. Pvc flue, 199,000 btu's, it allows for direct recirculation with no buffer tank, All of the screws are front facing, and a good warranty. The unit is rated as both residential and commercial.
            No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Pulled out another tankless

              Definitely the newer designs are much better than the older ones. The condensing boiler design allowing pvc venting was huge. I haven't sold a non condensing heater in 3-4 years. Then add the hybrid design to the unit eliminating the wait time and cold water sandwich and a lot of the issues disappear. The Navien and the Eternal have built in recirc connections as well as the Navien has a built in pump. I've heard a couple of good things about the new AO Smith hybrid. I need to check it out.

              David

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Pulled out another tankless

                AO Smith Tankless and State are rebranded Takagi.


                Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
                Talk to your local distributor about A.O. smith's ATI 540. It is the tankless that finally got me on board. Pvc flue, 199,000 btu's, it allows for direct recirculation with no buffer tank, All of the screws are front facing, and a good warranty. The unit is rated as both residential and commercial.
                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Pulled out another tankless

                  I've visited the State/AO Smith plant in Tennessee. The tankless division wasn't impressive. It was obvious that they were rebranding the tankless.

                  David

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Pulled out another tankless

                    The main problem when installing a tankless hot water unit is gas pipe and gas meter size to an existing building here in Aus the regs require that the gas pipes and gas meter be large enough to accomadate all gas appliances to be able to work at the same time without any decrees of gas at any of the appliances

                    Tony

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Pulled out another tankless

                      You got that right AFM
                      People don't under stand what it takes to make stuff work
                      Just like drainage is sized so every thing in the house can work at the same time
                      Because that's how people use it!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Pulled out another tankless

                        I have a few new installs out there and have worked on a few orphans.

                        Tankless has it's place. I've talked more people out of tankless than have installed. My tankless customers are fully informed so they have real world expectations.

                        Biggest problem with orphans that i've run into :

                        1. No water treatment
                        2. Undersized gas supply
                        3. Dirty install location, laundry is the worst so far.
                        4. Install location. They need to be SERVICED knotthead!
                        5. No electric disconnect.

                        Manufactors :

                        Units do not breakdown 9 - 5 m-f ! Need better tech support.

                        Whats the obsession with compact size? It would nice to have a little more room. I'm thinking of one job where the physical O.D. would have been a problem with clearance issues.

                        Fortunately in So. Cal. we don't have the extreme temp. rise issues.
                        Last edited by wookie; 02-12-2014, 11:14 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Pulled out another tankless

                          Originally posted by AFM View Post
                          The main problem when installing a tankless hot water unit is gas pipe and gas meter size to an existing building here in Aus the regs require that the gas pipes and gas meter be large enough to accomadate all gas appliances to be able to work at the same time without any decrees of gas at any of the appliances

                          Tony
                          I have followed behind other installers by having the gas meter increased to a 2 psi meter then regulating everything. It solved the problem more than once. Of course knowing whether that's an issue to begin with is a good way to avoid this problem. I always review the needed btu's vs the meter's output.

                          David

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Pulled out another tankless

                            Having lived in a tropical climate for 10 years now, gas tankless heaters fell off my radar a while back. I thought they were a great idea and was sure they had come a long way by now. The city I live in doesn't provide natural gas utility. If you want to have gas appliances (people who are really into cooking seem to prefer gas ranges/stoves) you have to sink a propane tank in the ground and have it delivered by truck. My insurance prohibits me from working on propane and since I get 0 demand for it, I'm not going to pay more for the privilege. My experience with electric tankless is limited, but far from positive. I've never tried to sell one yet or have one in my own home. I know people and businesses in my town who have put them in and had multiple warranty replacements and issues. It might not be the heaters fault; here's why: Just bit the bullet and had a friend in the AC biz change out my system. New condenser, new air handler. When I was online looking at SEER numbers and telling myself that if we pay more upfront for the more efficient unit, we'll get the payback within X amount of time. Our old unit is only 8yrs old and is around 13 SEER. My friend in the AC biz told me to forget about the new 18 and 20 SEER units because: they achieve this efficiency by having "serial communication" from the condenser, the evaporator/air handler, and the thermostat to control a multi-stage compressor. Thus, all these parts have low voltage computer boards. South Florida happens to be the lightning strike capital of the world. During our summer months, or, "rainy season", the severe lightning and thunderstorms are just part of life here. You got snow, we got lighting. This causes tons of surges, brownouts, and all kinds of glitches with electrical stuff. In addition, our electrical utility has a rep for being a big part of our problems. My friend said as soon as he started selling these high efficiency serial units, there were issues all the time with these various boards. Yes, they are covered under warranty, but after the 1st year, the tech has to drive to your home(this is going to happen on a blazing hot humid day, hopefully on a Sat night or Sunday) diagnose the problem, pull the board that's at fault, go to the supply house for an exchange, drive back and install it. There's $249 for wasting at least half a day on labor, and the customer is po'd that they're shelling out $$ for warranty that was supposed to be the better product in the first place. He had so many calls and warranty with these units, he stopped selling them. I'm thinking that our electrical utility maybe part of the big issue with these tankless heaters. Anything with microprocessors is low voltage and very sensitive to electrical variances. In addition to all this, I tell every cust who asks about electric tankless that they're going to need a licensed electrician to run a ton of power from the main panel to get the energy to run anything that could possibly provide the hot water they might need. Also, if it's leak-free and trouble free you're looking for, don't think for a second that a tankless is your answer. I'm for saving our resources as much as anybody, but sometimes you hit a point of diminishing returns; just ask the big guy on a high fiber diet with the .5 gpm per flush toilet...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Pulled out another tankless

                              Very correct, they identified an area of the market that they didn't do well, and made large investments into a company that does it very well.

                              Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                              AO Smith Tankless and State are rebranded Takagi.
                              No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Pulled out another tankless

                                just for clarities sake

                                Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
                                Very correct, they identified an area of the market that they didn't do well, and made large investments into a company that does it very well.
                                No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                                Comment

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