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  • #16
    Re: Step Up

    I'll ask the question again since it's been ignored on the other thread about soldering 4 " copper.

    How do you feel about victaulic fittngs on steel and copper?

    Rick.
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Step Up

      Rick, I'll comment. Based upon the 1000's of miles of sprinkler pipe connected with Victaulic around the country it's hard to think of how there could be a negative opinion. I've seen copper Victaulic joints but have never fitted them.

      David

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Step Up

        that's my point exactly. sprinkler and mechanical contractors are not going back to large bore threaded pipe anytime soon.


        my Victaulic copper roll groover cost 25% of a propress tool. It's able to do 2''-8'' copper in place. don't see any competition doing copper vic, yet it's cheap to buy and fast to assemble wet or dry.


        rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #19
          Less expensive materials and faster installations have opened the market to more customers. This means more people can afford to hire me and I can do more jobs in a day with less effort and my plumbing career will be extended. All of this ultimately will make me more money over the long haul.

          Comment


          • NHMaster3015
            NHMaster3015 commented
            Editing a comment
            It means you can run your *** off and make less money doing it

        • #20
          I suppose you would rather we go back to cast iron and joining it with molten lead NH or cutting threads on gal pipes or belting out lead traps yes their was skill in doing all that But I for one thank God it`s gone the plumber of today will become as skilled as we were with pex and every other new plumbing fittings on the market from now on I see they are developing toilets that use compressed air to flush the waste away with minimum water and the plumber wont have to worry about a fall in the waste pipe

          Tony

          Comment


          • NHMaster3015
            NHMaster3015 commented
            Editing a comment
            Tony, are you seeing many "skilled" pex installations? I'm not saying there aren't any but I'd bet that over 90% of the jobs I've seen look like some middle school students installed it.

        • #21
          New products and techniques save labor and thus cost in more ways than one. Their ease of installation invites lower skilled labor to enter the equation, all in the name of cheaper, always cheaper. As long as it meets the minimum standard, if quality suffers, so be it.
          That said, as pointed out by a number of you, not all new products are inferior to those which they presume to replace.

          Comment


          • NHMaster3015
            NHMaster3015 commented
            Editing a comment
            Plumbus.....gets it

        • #22
          NH, do you still use hand run speed drills to bore through top/bottom plates? You still use a hack saw to cut your pipes? How many horses pull your plumbing wagon, 1 or 2? Seriously, evolve or become extinct my friend. Or do you still like doing lead formed shower pans?....

          Comment


          • NHMaster3015
            NHMaster3015 commented
            Editing a comment
            Nope, I have two beavers on staff that chew the holes for me LOL

            Why do you guys think that I'm against everything that is new? Its all black and white to you isn't it?

        • #23
          NH, I take it by your posts that you practice what you preach, and teach? Many of us here have as much experience as you, but know that without adapting we would not be competitive or lead in our respective markets. Are your students leaving the classroom with your handicap and hangups? Are you preparing them for the real world where they can be competitive, or your world where it's Ground Hog Day, 1954.

          There are only two things that we in the Plumbing Business have to sell. Service and Solutions. Both require knowledge of the past, but the technology of today.
















          Comment


          • NHMaster3015
            NHMaster3015 commented
            Editing a comment
            I introduce them to all of that crap. If the class ran around that crap it would be over in less than a month. Am I the only one here that is seeing the hack work and the hacks installing it? Don't you guys get out and see who's working in your community and what they are doing? Talk with your local and state inspectors. They will spend hours telling you the horror stories and the laughable work being passed off these days as code compliant plumbing.

            My company is the largest, longest lasting and most profitable in the area. We have been in business since 1956. We have 13 plumbers in the field. W do not use any of that crap, EVER. We don't need to b fast, cheap and easy. We have a reputation for doing nothing but the highest quality work using the highest quality materials. We don't give a crap about being competitive. Some of today's technology is very good and some is plain crap. I don't reject product without 1st evaluating it.

          • ArizonaPlumber
            ArizonaPlumber commented
            Editing a comment
            You are the Big Fish, in the Little Pond.
            Some of us swim in deeper waters.

            I bet the local baker cried when he found out you'd replaced his fresh baked white bread for the jet sweat. Hurt worse was the carpenter who lost that big two-holer order.

            Funny still, is that your "Protecting the Health" poster was originated by the PHCC decades ago, and apparently their evaluation of PROPRESS was good enough to have it included it in their National Standard Plumbing Code. Me thinks their evaluation carries a lot more credence than an EVALUATION from The Master.

            Here's a list of approvals I just picked up from the Viega website.
            Viega ProPress and Viega MegaPress are also compliant with the following:
            ICC International Plumbing Code
            Uniform Mechanical Code
            UPC Uniform Plumbing Code
            PHCC National Standard Plumbing Code

            On this link you can find a few approved applications for ProPress and MegaPress:
            http://www.viega.us/cps/rde/xbcr/en-...ions_chart.pdf

            BTW, our local Plumbing Inspectors are some of the best in the industry and are happy as can be about lead free benefits of ProPress and Pex. Some are even carrying around acid test strips for checking the flux residue.

          • NHMaster3015
            NHMaster3015 commented
            Editing a comment
            Like I said, grease enough palms and you can get anyone including the PHCC to approve anything. Best in the country? Based on what? The question remains. What would you rather place your complete and total confidence on? Plastic and rubber or tried and true? I'd ask which you would rather have in your own home but most are going to lie about it to shore up an already weak argument. Really though answer this. How much time and money are you saving using flex supplies and how much liability are you willing to assume? Look into what happens to your insurance rates if you have to defend yourself in court.

        • #24
          Well said !
          I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

          Comment


          • #25
            just finished a school repipe 20' up in the air over a handball court. 2'' copper and smaller using propress.

            the master would still be trying to solder with water running and tight access. i'm finished with no leaks and no burns. facilities manager is thrilled it was finished without disrupting the school scheduled or students.

            Rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • NHMaster3015
              NHMaster3015 commented
              Editing a comment
              The master knows how to shut off and drain water. The master would have indeed soldered it and been out of there without disrupting the schools schedule. The master has been doing commercial work for almost 40 years. The master can sleep at night without having to worry if one of those pro press fittings just might fail. Something that the solders fitting just can't do.

            • PLUMBER RICK
              PLUMBER RICK commented
              Editing a comment
              We already know for a fact that the master uses illegal flux and it would be next to impossible to solder with the approved water soluble flux.
              Try using the required flux on wet lines and tell me how you're going to sleep at night. Also tell me why they are having a hard time trying to figure out why certain fluxes and lead free brass valves are not compatible.

              You might be teaching the kids and potentially future plumbers, but you also need to learn from plumbers in the field what works and what doesn't. A classroom isn't a jobsite.

              Rick.

            • NHMaster3015
              NHMaster3015 commented
              Editing a comment
              Illegal flux? Is that all ya got? Did you press the entire job wet? I'm betting not. I'm betting you pressed a ball valve in and then worked dry. Me, I'd have jet swetted a ball valve in and worked dry. Do you really do much of this kind of work or just talk about it? This is stuff the crew does on a daily basis. No gimmicks, no 3000 dollar specialty tools. We climb up there and get it done and again, never worry about something popping off, weeping or leaking down the road. Ever wonder why your liability insurance is a freeking high as it is........Dooooohhhhhhhh.

              Actually though, the classroom is a job site and we, as a class do several offsite jobs every quarter. The students are just finishing up all the plumbing and heating on a four unit assisted living facility. NO PEX, no aavS, no shark bites, flex supplies, plastic J hangers, compression fixture stops or any of the rest of the crap being installed by "masters".

              My students do learn from "plumbers" in the field and they learn from me, a master plumber in the field since 1974. A master plumber that isn't interested in installing crap just to save a few minutes and then move on to the next job and install more crap. You are are only kidding yourself and fruitlessly defending practices and products that you know down deep are crap and a contributing factor to the decay of this trade and many others too.

              Here's the question for you homeowners. Who do you want working in your job? Mr. Fast cheap and easy, or me?
              Last edited by NHMaster3015; 05-04-2014, 10:35 AM.

          • #26
            Nhmaster, Illegal flux would cause you to fail an inspection and tear out every joint . Tell me who the hack is?
            this is not just a California code, it's a national code. So basically you're teaching and preaching going against the code.

            and unlike you, im in the field every day doing the work. No supervising or teaching a class. Talk is cheap, labor and hands on experiance is not. when was the last time you actually worked with the tools on a regular basis. Not a school field trip, but a real construction site from ground work up to finish? When was the last time you did a multi unit repipe. My largest was a 155 unit 5 story condo building that 1 was the reason why I got the job over all the other companies with a foot in the door who have worked there on a regular basis. And unlike what you think, we made money and compleated it in record time compared to their other prior contractors attempts. Ps. This Was before propress and water wasnt a factor as all the pipe was cut out and removed from the 5 story risers. Ball valves were installed in the garage as needed to isolate the risers by freezing.

            There's a reason why none of my supply houses stock soldered on angle stops. They aren't used out here.
            but show me a supply house that doesn't stock approved water soluble flux. What's your excuse for not abiding by the code and using a required flux? Show me how to solder a simple angle stop with water and then show me how to unsolder it too. That's a simple 1/2" joint. Now bump it up to a 4" joint I can still do in 5 seconds wet or dry.

            see soldering is not as simple as it once use to be. Im still sitting on 6" and smaller fittings that will probably be worth scrap value.


            do your inspectors allow you to use non approved flux? They're just as much a hack as you then.

            Rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #27
              Hint: a small wet/dry vacuum is thousands and thousands of dollars less than a propress lol
              Last edited by NHMaster3015; 05-04-2014, 12:20 PM.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #28
                They don't stock them because apparently nobody in California cares about quality. How do you manage 155 units all by yourself? I did a boiler Chang yesterday. I pick up the tools often. Doing a water softener and iron filter tomorrow afternoon The crew is currently working on a 110 unit retirement hotel and a new shopping mall (not the student crew). We do a crapload of commercial work. What makes you think we don't use water soluble flux? We don't have too but we do on new installs. I guess if I were you I'd either throw my hands up in despair and walk off the job or I'd run to the supply house and spend three grand on another propress lol
                sigpic

                Comment


                • PLUMBER RICK
                  PLUMBER RICK commented
                  Editing a comment
                  What makes me think you use non approved flux?

                  You do and you've admitted it many times. So either you change your story or start editing your post.

                  I was the reason why my uncle and I landed the 155 unit job. I met with the board. I negotiated with them, and they liked what they saw and heard. Not bad for them not knowing me at all. And I continued there for years after doing their work.

                  You'll never win a bid thinking your way is the only way. This coming from a union shop competing head to head with non union on large bid projects.

                  On our projects, we rarely wrote the specs. And government jobs didn't spec sweat stops. Probably because they knew there is a disadvantage in them. They would spec loose key ips stops and brass nipples. Sweat stops were never in a spec from local, state or federal projects I worked on.

                  Rick.
                  Last edited by PLUMBER RICK; 05-05-2014, 12:45 AM. Reason: spell check and clarification

                • NHMaster3015
                  NHMaster3015 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  No problem at all with IPS stops. We still use them for pedestal lavs

              • #29
                This story may sound off but I think it applies here so bear with me. When I was in the Navy I was teaching a leadership class. A higher ranking person listened to me talk all day....during one particular subject he asked if he could interject and asked the class what they thought "old navy" was. The class went around and talked about doing things "old school" and "not broke don't fix it"...most in the room agreed that "old navy" was better then this "new navy" by far.

                The higher ranking guy listened and said "Old navy to me is a mentality that, that's how we did it in the past that's how we're going to continue it in the future. But here's the thing....those guys who focus on the past, live in the past and as changing as the navy is, those "old navy guys" get left behind. You have to adapt to today. So really "old navy" imo isn't that great." BTW the guy talking had 28 years in the navy.

                I didn't say anything at the time....I considered myself an "old navy" kinda guy. Then I thought how much I did think about the past. Well....too little too late. The Navy had a downsizing program in process at the time and two weeks after the "old navy" speech, I got called in and told I was getting kicked out a few months later(along with 3000 other sailors). I joined a facebook page for the sailors who got kicked out and one resounding similarity between myself and vast majority of those people were the fact we all talked about how the navy changed and how we didn't. Most of my friends still in that are successful saw the change, embraced it and incorporated with what they experienced in the past.

                Nothing in life is perfect and there's only one certainty of it.....change will happen. Might be a new product, new technique, new law, new whatever.....but if you don't learn to be successful in the "now" then adios. IMO NHmaster this is why you're comfortable in your stance.....your company has been around since 1956....that's it....the only reason. If you tried to start a business today without that reputation as your resume....chances are you may not be so successful. Think a propress is expensive? Heck alot cheaper then an employee that you need to hire because of labor consuming methods.



                Buy cheap, buy twice.

                Comment


                • #30
                  Don't confuse old school with reckless practices. I weigh the worth of just about everything. Those new order with new products and who rely on the plumbing code to decide whether a product is acceptable would do well to remember Polybutylene. A product that until 3 years ago was still accepted under both IPC and UPC. Take a hard look at some of the crap they approve. Anyone using plastic J hangers for PVC? I'll bet quite a few are. Ever see shat happens to a 40', 3" lateral that is full of water? Those J hooks that saved you eight bucks and twenty minutes fold like a cheap suitcase. Who's chads sewer smell only to find a defective AAV? I have. Who's seen SS flexi-supplies fail and destroy a 1/2 million dollar home? I have. How about those lightning holes in CSST folks LOL and The list goes on. How many have noted that their liability insurance keeps going up even though you may not have filed a claim? I have and so have you and it keeps going up because the insurance companies keep having to pay off lawsuits caused by cheap, code accepted crap and unskilled stooges hired to install it. Fifty plus years in business. Not one single claim has the company filed.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • PLUMBER RICK
                    PLUMBER RICK commented
                    Editing a comment
                    you really need to get your facts from a better source. the most common plumbing related loss to an insurance company is burst rubber washing machine hoses. how many customers actually shut off their hoses at the end of a wash? ive seen way more spaghetti chrome riser blow out due to lack of beading and friction rings than i've seen blown ss flexes. ss flexes don't blow without warning. in fact i used my hydrostatic test rig to pump up ss washing machines hoses to 800# and they didn't burst. i stopped there as i maxed out my portable unit. my buddy steve was amazed as he wanted to test them. who knows, i might have the old photos stashed on my phone.
                    ss flex water supplies are constructed similar to washing machine hoses by the way.

                    Rick.

                  • NHMaster3015
                    NHMaster3015 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Did I say that stainless supplies were the sole cause of high liability rates? What they are is but another contributing factor along with all the rest of the junk that has been "code approved" I never said anything about the most common source. Get your reading skills straight.
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