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  • #31
    Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
    This story may sound off but I think it applies here so bear with me. When I was in the Navy I was teaching a leadership class. A higher ranking person listened to me talk all day....during one particular subject he asked if he could interject and asked the class what they thought "old navy" was. The class went around and talked about doing things "old school" and "not broke don't fix it"...most in the room agreed that "old navy" was better then this "new navy" by far.

    The higher ranking guy listened and said "Old navy to me is a mentality that, that's how we did it in the past that's how we're going to continue it in the future. But here's the thing....those guys who focus on the past, live in the past and as changing as the navy is, those "old navy guys" get left behind. You have to adapt to today. So really "old navy" imo isn't that great." BTW the guy talking had 28 years in the navy.

    I didn't say anything at the time....I considered myself an "old navy" kinda guy. Then I thought how much I did think about the past. Well....too little too late. The Navy had a downsizing program in process at the time and two weeks after the "old navy" speech, I got called in and told I was getting kicked out a few months later(along with 3000 other sailors). I joined a facebook page for the sailors who got kicked out and one resounding similarity between myself and vast majority of those people were the fact we all talked about how the navy changed and how we didn't. Most of my friends still in that are successful saw the change, embraced it and incorporated with what they experienced in the past.

    Nothing in life is perfect and there's only one certainty of it.....change will happen. Might be a new product, new technique, new law, new whatever.....but if you don't learn to be successful in the "now" then adios. IMO NHmaster this is why you're comfortable in your stance.....your company has been around since 1956....that's it....the only reason. If you tried to start a business today without that reputation as your resume....chances are you may not be so successful. Think a propress is expensive? Heck alot cheaper then an employee that you need to hire because of labor consuming methods.


    Your higher ranking person reminds me of something Lee Iacoca said when talking about change in the auto industry.
    "Get on, get out of the way, or get run over."

    Comment


    • #32
      took some time to browse 1000's of photos on my phone, but i knew they were there. so here you go nhmaster. over 800 psi applied to ss washing machine hoses and they didn't burst. same construction as ss water flexes.

      rick.
      Attached Files
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • NHMaster3015
        NHMaster3015 commented
        Editing a comment
        Two things. 1st, did I say any one particular crap product was the cause of high liability rates....ah no and 2nd, do you really think that because one particular or for that matter a dozen flex hoses passed your test that that is enough? Really? I guess we can bypass all the 3rd party testing and go right to ricks recommendations lol

    • #33
      Like it or not it's called evolution and most people are creatures of habit they do not like change. Even if the latest products were to be voted unreliable they would be replaced with something newer.

      Old school is old school, don't let modernization pass you by...

      Comment


      • #34
        Originally posted by AssTyme View Post
        Like it or not it's called evolution and most people are creatures of habit they do not like change. Even if the latest products were to be voted unreliable they would be replaced with something newer.

        Old school is old school, don't let modernization pass you by...


        Just wanted to add that I'm talking overall, not just one thing in particular. Sounds like some of this is about ego, protecting a trade that will as most things are be forever changing.

        Comment


        • NHMaster3015
          NHMaster3015 commented
          Editing a comment
          Of course its ever changing and that's as it should be, but the evolutionary process makes for 100,000 or more extinct species than successful ones.

      • #35
        Evolution is one thing. Blind acceptance for the sake of profit is another. Don't confuse old school with reckless practices. I weigh the worth of just about everything. Those who are in love with all these new products and who rely on the plumbing code to decide whether a product is acceptable would do well to remember Polybutylene. A product that until 3 years ago was still accepted under both IPC and UPC. Take a hard look at some of the crap they approve. Anyone using plastic J hangers for PVC? I'll bet quite a few are. Ever see what happens to a 40', 3" lateral that is full of water? Those J hooks that saved you eight bucks and twenty minutes fold like a cheap suitcase. Who's had sewer smell only to find a defective AAV? I have. Who's seen SS flexi-supplies fail and destroy a 1/2 million dollar home? I have. How about those lightning holes in CSST folks LOL and The list goes on. How many have noted that their liability insurance keeps going up even though you may not have filed a claim? I have and so have you and it keeps going up because the insurance companies keep having to pay off lawsuits caused by cheap, code accepted crap and unskilled stooges hired to install it. Fifty plus years in business. Not one single claim has the company filed.

        I have no problem with change but the change damn well needs to be for the better, not the more convenient. I use PVC because its advantages far outweigh its disadvantages (except for foam core which I will not use) No-hub cast iron may be slightly more durable and certainly quieter but all those clamps and rubber seals are in my mind not as secure a connection as a solvent weld. The key here is to think long and hard about the advantages and disadvantages, your liability and your reputation. Some here remind me of Crows. Fascinated by new and shiny things Ooooohhhh.
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #36
          Tell me nhmaster, how do you hook up washing machines?

          factory supplied rubber hoses, ss flex hoses, hydraulic hoses, or copper tubing?

          have you installed any faucets in the last 15 years, most modern single handle faucets come with either pex or ss flex lines. Both on the supply lines and spout connections. very few old school faucets are still being made. Especially now with lead free construction.wide spreads are all flex lines between the spout and valve on 99% of modern faucets.

          Probably time for you to retire if you're not aware of the new designs. Old school is out unless you have old stock from 20 plus years ago sitting on the shelf.

          Rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • NHMaster3015
            NHMaster3015 commented
            Editing a comment
            Nah, I just hack the same crap in that everyone else does LOL

            I don't hook up washing machines, nor will I supply the hoses for them. I will not take on that liability but in my own home I use the flood safe valve.

            Installed a faucet last Thursday. If you didn't buy your faucets from Home Depot and Lowes you could still get them with IPS or copper tubes too.

            Yes indeed, wide spreads are all flex lines, crap, but flex lines none the less. Again, I don't sell those and won't install them for someone that did.

            Retire? What makes you think I don't keep up? I "keep up" on all this stuff which is why I also speak out against those products that I feel are crap rather than patting myself on the back for being a sheep. cheap, fast and easy. Make a good company name for someone wouldn't it ? LOL

            Hey, you didn't explain why a one man operation needs five threading machines and a half dozen or more pro-press machines.

        • #37
          I don't buy faucets at home depot and most of my customers supply their own faucets. Grohe, kwc, are high end faucets and they use flex lines. Especially now with no lead brass. You being in a school are not involved in the daily operations of your business. I am in charge of every last thing. Probably why I know a lot more about liability insurance than yourself. I deal with it every year at renewal time. I shop, ask questions, fill out the forms, read the endless pages and ask more questions. Ive busted more than 1 shady insurance broker selling snake oil. Ive gone as far as speaking to the ceo's secretary of allstate insurance. Who gave me a 100% refund on a policy that differed from what was quoted and paid for. Another insurance co paid for a full year on their dime for a policy that was forged. So yes, there are crooks in every profession and you need to know how to spot them.
          not bad for 20 years being self employed. Not 1 claim. Sound familiar?

          why all the tools. For 1, I can afford them. , they are all paid for, they make me money, and it's a better investment than the .01% interest in a business account.

          so you don't hook up washing machines, then I take it you don't hook up ice makers either, or high end water filters that are all jon guess fittings and poly hose. Let me guess you swap it to copper and soldered fittings.

          you are the perfect candidate for the new poster child of can't teach an old dog new tricks.sure hope your students don't get brainwashed into that mentality. They would starve in todays modern society.

          Rick.
          Last edited by PLUMBER RICK; 05-05-2014, 09:58 AM.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • NHMaster3015
            NHMaster3015 commented
            Editing a comment
            I am not surprised that you let your customers buy their own.

            I am involved in the day to day operation of the business. I am still the CEO. You are in charge of yourself. I am in charge of 16 employees. 20 years, no claims, try that with 16 employees LOL

            You can afford them? One can make you money. A half dozen or so are a business liability. You, a one man operation feel that investing in say 5 threading machines is a good business practice? Tells me volumes right there.

            I do not hook up ice makers and I buy Fleck and Clack valves for filtration equipment and I do not get them with press fittings. I don't do Jon Guess fittings and yes, we do swap it to copper and the 1st time you have a plastic ice maker line leak and destroy the ceiling below, so will you,,,,,,,,or maybe not LOL

            Hmmm, my students. Four years in a row, NH State plumbing, gold medal winners and headed for Kansas City again this year. Only took the silver and bronze in 2010 and gold the two previous years. 96% student to work placement in either post secondary for plumbing or the workforce. I'd say that the program and what and how I teach is pretty damn successful. I'd say that you are the poster child for most of what is killing the profession today.

            I know your business, the weeds are full of one man shops and most of them are doing the same things you are doing. Trying to keep their heads above the water by underbidding everyone and selling the cheapest and easiest products they can to maintain a margin. I also know that if you really do have all the tools and equipment that you claim to have and if you really are all by yourself, then you either come from money, inherited money or don't understand money, and certainly not good business practices.
            Last edited by NHMaster3015; 05-05-2014, 11:08 AM.

        • #38
          I'm enjoying the pissing contest, but don't you both have something better to do? I think we could use a little Hegelian dialectic right about now.

          Comment


          • #39
            Originally posted by Plumbus View Post
            I'm enjoying the pissing contest, but don't you both have something better to do? I think we could use a little Hegelian dialectic right about now.
            It's apparent that Rick has evolved, and the Master hasn't based on the Hegelian dialectic.

            Comment


            • #40
              nhmaster, i would love the opportunity to show you up at the roundups, but apparently the 2 occasions they were hosted, you were too scared or too cheap to show up. lets see them finish 1st in their class of hundreds of union apprentices over a 4 year school year.
              you don't hook up washing machines and ice makers. pretty basic plumbing if you ask me. i guess you just leave it for the delivery truck drivers. you must have a showroom of 1000's of faucets and fixtures. out here there are showrooms in every trendy neighborhood. my customers have their own taste in fixtures. not what is forced upon them.
              ceo of a company you weren't even alive in 1956 when that company was formed. you didn't start the company, you just have a title given to you from the prior owners.
              ive worked since age 12, to get where i am now. nothing was handed to me.
              amazing your customers haven't figured you out yet like the rest of the forum has. guess they don't read or try to learn anything for themselves. too bad they have very few choices in your town.

              Rick.
              phoebe it is

              Comment


              • NHMaster3015
                NHMaster3015 commented
                Editing a comment
                Roundup really? Show me at the roundup? How about too busy. I run a business (a good size one that actually has employees) and I teach 5 days a week and two at night.

                Show me what? That you can thread pipe and run a cable? 1st in your class, congratulations. I'm the guy that teaches that class.

                No, we don't typically hook up washing machines or ice makers. Typically the homeowner does it themselves or hell yes, they have the delivery guy do it. Very few customers are going to call us at 239 dollars to screw two hoses to a washing machine but then again I live in a place where apparently most folks are a bit more self reliant LOL

                Nope, I was alive in 56 but still a toddler, took over the business in 74 ish so I've only been at that end of it for 40 years now. The prior owner was my father who BTW is still alive and still comes in occasionally. I do however recognize and thank him for the hard work he did establishing the company.

                What have you figured out? From your boastful posts about the hundreds of thousands of dollars in redundant tools and equipment you supposedly have and that you don't do PEX I think we have pretty much surmised that you don't do new construction, you are a one man band so doing any large commercial is out of reach and that you are pretty much a glorified drain cleaner slash service plumber.

                They have over twenty choices in my town, maybe more.

                The joke here is you Mr roundup LOL
                Last edited by NHMaster3015; 05-06-2014, 06:29 AM.

            • #41

              Comment


              • #42
                Ha NH or are you NH the way your talking gloom and doom where plumbers use twenty first century fitting and you don`t like it you sound like Frank are you Franky
                And you cannot tell me as a plumbing teacher that you haven`t been teaching you students all about all the new plumbing products on the market over the last forty years and how our industry has developed for the better as plumbing was back breaking when I did my apprenticeship in the 1960`s no I think you are just stirring the pot and arguing something you don`t really believe in

                Tony

                Comment


                • NHMaster3015
                  NHMaster3015 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  If you are implying that we should all go back to galvanized and lead, hub and spigot, house traps etc I am in no way advocating a step backwards. However, where I live there are still a whole lot of those materials in houses and businesses so sure, I still teach how to pour a lead joint because many times the best way to repair a joint or flange is to re-fit and pour the joint. Sure, I show them PEX and CSST and all the other stuff they will run into but the difference is that I don't push this crap and I don't recommend it either if I feel that the product is not up to my standards. All I am saying is that faster, cheaper and easier is not always better. Furthermore there are a lot of products out there that I believe are questionable as far as my liability is concerned. So as a smart business man should I be installing washing machine hoses? Whats in it for me? A few dollars up front and named in a lawsuit if they blow out and destroy property. I asked this a few posts back and got no response but i'll ask again. Given a choice how many of these cheap, fast, easy products will you put in your own home and when they fail, who you gonna blame?

              • #43
                so basically you charge $239.00 to screw on 2 washing machine hoses and a drain hose. no wonder you don't do this. who in their right mind will pay you that much money for a simple task.

                lets compare what was handed to you from your father and what i built up on my own with $0.00 of advertising. even today i have no website or listed phone number. and i can afford to take the week off to join others in the trade at the factory that's a plumbers disneyland to us.

                yet you have income coming in when you take a day off or go on vacation and are too cheap to come and show up. i even paid the way for 2 others to join the fun. flight and hotel.

                you inherited an established business from your father. i built mine from the ground up. and from the sound of it have every tool avaliable to get the job done without the help of 13 old school plumbers. yes i worked new construction for 15 years in a company that employed over 100 union plumbers. i chose to get out of that line of work and concentrate on techknowledgey. something you have no desire to learn or invest in. no wonder i am busy 6 days a week and work for some of the largest contractors in the city. even out of state and expert work. so me being just a service plumber and drain cleaner is an understatement to say the least.

                seems like you'll continue in your old school ways and continue being a dinosaur that will eventually die off. while i'll be the cockroach that will survive the nuclear age. 1 rich cockroach that is in everyone's home and business.

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • PLUMBER RICK
                  PLUMBER RICK commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Of course I understand math and profits. So basically 10% of $239.00 an hour tells me it cost you basically $215.00 out of $239.00 to keep your doors open.

                  And you question how I can afford to buy all the tools I need to get the job done. I question where all the overhead comes from?

                  Fyi, I did 15 years of new construction. I don't do new construction anymore. But I still do piping installs. And I do get subbed out by dozens of general and plumbing contractors to do their speciality work they dont have the tools or hands on skills to do. It would be well over 2000 customers if I billed the end users. But I typically bill the contractor unless they want the customer to pay me directly.

                  It doesn't take a crew to accomplish most task I do. It takes smarts, experiance and the right tools. Something that seems to be lacking on your side.

                  Rick.

                • NHMaster3015
                  NHMaster3015 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Oh for Christs sakes. Take a business course.

                  You think that 215 for overhead is high? Probably is for a guy working out of his garage. LOL and BTW the 239 is a flat rate charge, not hourly. We stopped screwing ourselves charging hourly a decade ago....See.....progress LOL
                  It doesn't take a crew to do what you do because you don't do that much. Not an insult, just the fact. You can't do that much, tools or not. There's only so many hours in the week and what with cruises and trips to Costa Rica and Roundups and such that doesn't leave a whole lot of hours for work.

                • PLUMBER RICK
                  PLUMBER RICK commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Unlike what you think, I actually own outright a 2500sq' shop for over 10 years. And at over $300.00 a foot, I'll let you do the math.

                  Dont forget my house that's also paid off at over $600. A foot.

                  Yes real estate is more out here than 99% of the country.

                  Remember what a very wealthy customer told me 20 years ago.

                  Jesus Saves.

                  Moses Invest.

                  Rick does both.

                  Working long hours, thats why my post are late at night or early morning. Unlike your daytime post.

                  Even your employees get a week off I hope. More if they've been with you that many years.

                  Rick.
                  Last edited by PLUMBER RICK; 05-07-2014, 10:06 AM.

              • #44
                Yep, $239,00 We get that to show up on the doorstep no matter what. And yes, very few folks are going to pay that to screw a couple hoses on and for that matter, though I like the money, screwing hoses on ain't exactly what we are in business for but, if the customer wants us too we just might but only if they are willing to sign a waiver.

                Ok lets compare. When I took over the business had a little more than 900 regular customers, we have over 4000 now. The business was netting about 4.3% of gross. We net 10.2 now. The business had two vans and 4 employees. We have 8 and 13 now. We didnt' clean drains, do water filtration and water pumps, backflow testing, much commercial work and we didn't do anywhere near a million in sales a year. We do now. So sure, I inherited it. I also worked as an apprentice and journeyman under my father for many years before I inherited it. Technology, all the vans are GPS equipped (I know where every truck is by looking at my computer screen) every truck has an Ipad mounted on the dash along with bluetooth printers. If the technology makes us money, we use it but I still haven't heard a decent explanation why a SINGLE plumber needs to own 5 threading machines LOL

                Disneyland for plumbers? How many plumbers showed up? maybe a dozen or so? Don't you wonder why Ridgid ain't doing the roundup anymore even though you continue to whine about it? Its because it makes no financial sense to cater to a dozen guys. On the list of priorities for Ridgid I would say catering to your ego is pretty far down the list.

                So, WHY ARE YOU NOT USING PEX Mr.Technology?

                You should quit while you are still behind. Like I've said, not much of what you post adds up. I know (and so does the IRS) pretty close to the income possible from running a one man show. So do most of us that are in the business. I know that your tool purchases are a foolish investment (not really an investment at all actually) I know that everything you claim to do or have done can be done without your tool investment and most if not all of it can be done cheaper. Do you ever actually amortize your investments? The answer is hell no or you wouldn't own a dozen Propress tools. In short, you can call me old school and a dinosaur but the dinosaurs were around for millions and millions of years. Far more successful as a species than mankind thus far.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • PLUMBER RICK
                  PLUMBER RICK commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Calif. Was the last state that was a hold out on pex. It took a big lawsuit to get calif to approve pex. Since i don't to repipes anymore, and pex is not uv rated, repairs get done in copper.

                  At $239.00 an hour and 10.2% net profits, who is spending all the money. Your overhead is through the roof and i know your cost of living isn't anywhere as close to southern calif.

                  13 plumbers and only 4000 clients. You either live in a small town or are overpriced.

                  Amazing how I can be 4 doors away from a 100 plus truck operation and less than a mile away from another company that spends millions on advertising, yet I still seem to manage without a penny spent on advertising and still have close to 2000 customers on my books. Might be why I can afford the tools of the trade. 3 jetting jobs yesterday and it didnt cost me a cent to aquire these customers. Looks like the boss is doing something right.

                  Sometimes bigger isn't always better.

                  Rick.

                  I think both of you need to go to your own corners for now.

                  Mark
                  Last edited by ToUtahNow; 05-07-2014, 01:29 PM.

              • #45
                Also no wet venting...
                Last edited by sewermonster85; 05-06-2014, 11:28 AM.

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