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  • #46
    Chicago was won the last places to introduce new methods into the workforce its a city ran by unions so what they want that's what they get I'm not knocking anybody or anyone that uses other methods to do their work but this what I was raised in. my dad was a plumber, my uncles are all plumbers,my cousins are all plumbers.I'm not saying that one method is more superior than the other for that the new technologies are bunch of flim flam but the trade is getting crowded and everybody knows the horror stories of hacks lurking around.the old methods the average Joe don't know ho w to caulk joints or sweet 3 or 4" copper or Do sewer repairs with out using rubber couplings Bend tubing for supply lines .I mean no disrespect to any one ..Or on there proffered methods of work.I just thought I'd like to add my two cents of how its done up here..

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    • #47
      Cast Iron is still used today.Residental or commercial no exceptions. Clay tile is still used as sewer lines.No fern cos no mission couplings no no hubs and no proflex couplings.Commercial dwv is type m copper ...no exceptions. .All water commercial or resident a l is type L copper..no exceptions. .Residential dwv can be pvc as long as it's under a three f lat ..above ground only..it's harder more labor intensive and expensive but this is the norm out here.No pex anywhrre.no sharkbites snywhere.these older methods are tried and true.No flexies of any kind..All tubular should be brass..p traps, pop ups, end and center outlet wastes ,extensions, ect....supply lines nut and ferral and tube bending.Its old school at its best..Tried and true and it works.However 2 and 2 are not the only answers to 4.I do like some of the new stuff ..I think it could really benefit the trade..but some stuff...no way would I use it in my house.

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      • #48
        I love Chicago
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        • #49
          Originally posted by sewermonster85 View Post
          Cast Iron is still used today.Residental or commercial no exceptions. Clay tile is still used as sewer lines.No fern cos no mission couplings no no hubs and no proflex couplings.Commercial dwv is type m copper ...no exceptions. .All water commercial or resident a l is type L copper..no exceptions. .Residential dwv can be pvc as long as it's under a three f lat ..above ground only..it's harder more labor intensive and expensive but this is the norm out here.No pex anywhrre.no sharkbites snywhere.these older methods are tried and true.No flexies of any kind..All tubular should be brass..p traps, pop ups, end and center outlet wastes ,extensions, ect....supply lines nut and ferral and tube bending.Its old school at its best..Tried and true and it works.However 2 and 2 are not the only answers to 4.I do like some of the new stuff ..I think it could really benefit the trade..but some stuff...no way would I use it in my house.
          O God thank you for me being born in Australia all plumbing codes went out the window in 1976 and all new came in where PVC suspended or inground sewers were brought in where only one vent was needed on a whole house and over the last thirty years plumbing in Australia has moved right into the twenty first century and reading this forum I am amazed that some US states are still in the plumbing stone age

          Tony

          Comment


          • #50
            Tony, Most states have either adopted the UPC or the IPC with a few stragglers under the NPC and a couple states have their own codes. IOW, the federal government doesn't get its hands involved in plumbing yet regardless of the misinformation disseminated by another member here. We can, sometimes go with a single vent also, especially under the IPC. It would be nice to have one universal code and god knows that the attempt has been made many times over the years. (yours truly having been a member of that board on several occasions) but politics and states rights always get in the way and underlying that is the real reason and that comes down to money. someone is going to make a ton of it and some will lose a ton of it and then we have states like Illinois, Kentucky and Massachusetts that want no part of it at all. Generally though, with the exception of those states, the rest of them have adopted code that is pretty loose compared to the old BOCA code. Remember though that these new codes are the "minimum" standards. Anyone can certainly go above and beyond them if they want and some of us do. This allows us the flexibility to treat every job differently if needed. I'll ask a question here and see what I get for answers. Do you prefer and island vent, waste stack vent or an AAV for an island sink install? All three are approved under IPC and UPC but which are you going to go with? The answer tells me a lot about the plumber and his mindset.
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            • PLUMBER RICK
              PLUMBER RICK commented
              Editing a comment
              http://www.rochesternh.net/Public_Do.../BuildingCodes

              You fall under the 2009 ipc in Rochester NH.

              You should read the code 1 day and learn about flux requirements since you seem to use your own discression on whats approved.

              I hope you Educate your students better than your attempt at bsing the pros on this forum.

              Rick.

            • NHMaster3015
              NHMaster3015 commented
              Editing a comment
              Here's the straight scoop for those following this mess. I live in Maine and work mostly in New Hampshire. Neither of those states are requiring, inspecting or enforcing the use of water soluble flux. California may be mandating it but we ARE NOT and though Rick says the national government is mandating it, he is wrong. The fed is mandating nothing of the sort. It is up to the states and their individual code and code enforcement boards to make that decision. The question is "do we us water soluble flux" and the answer is yes most of the time. New systems, new construction, dry piping all the time. If we have to use the old stuff though we do. This really comes down to due diligence. We have always cleaned and flushed systems regardless of the flux being used. I'd bet Mr. Master has brought up "illegal flux" a dozen or more times as his defacto argument but........It doesn't hold water LOL.

          • #51
            Rick, I'm done with this conversation for now. Its pretty apparent here to anyone reading this that something's fishy and frankly I feel like I'm arguing with someone that doesn't have enough of an understanding of business to be able to defend what any real business man would call bad business practices. I am however happy for you that you have somehow managed to find a niche where you can make a few bucks.
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            • ToUtahNow
              ToUtahNow commented
              Editing a comment
              I think both of you need to go to your own corners for now.

              Mark

          • #52
            Holy Crap! So this is where the posts came from. I missed this and had posts spill over onto my Help me find a book post. I read it all, and I have to just laugh. I am pretty sure that I have worked around NHMaster. You are Just a "JOY" to be around on the job site. I am sure that everyone on your job sites are jumping out of bed to get to work. As my Generation would say "NOT". I have agreed with some of things that you have said, and I am very concerned about our industry as a whole. Plumbing code is the Minimum Standard, and that has become the norm. I do not do the Minimum, and I run Uponor pex, and pro press everything. Our water is very corrosive and the ground is eating copper from the outside. Pex is the best solution for my area for me. I pro press because I have done tests on my solder joints with the Code approved methods versus Propress, and Propress held up better. I remember being told that I was too young to learn. I worked on a job site along another Plumber who wouldn't teach his apprentice things because he "Wasn't Ready". I showed this guy some things, and his boss got mad at me. I am going out on a limb and guessing that if you have as many years as you claim to have, then you are on your way out, and are scared. You probably don't have anyone that you trust to hand the business off too, because of your Critical Spirit, you find yourself alone. I am here to say "It's OK". If I could, I would fly out there and let you rest your head on my chest and let you cry it out. If you have that many employees then I understand that you need to take your frustration out on us. It's OK. You got this, and you are the GREATEST Plumber that has ever lived. Just keep telling yourself this. "I am Beautiful! and Dog gonnit, People Like me" All the Love in the world is coming your way, and I hope and pray that all of your employees surround you today and just give you the biggest, sweetest hug that they can.
            ‚Äč
            "don't put that in your mouth, you don't know where it's been"

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            • #53
              The newest man in the shop has been with us for seven years now. There are days when I am no Joy to be around indeed. Especially those days when someone does work that doesn't meet mine or the companies standards. If you are suggesting that I lighten up or lower my standards, all I can tell you is that the business continues to grow every year because I do hold the work to higher standards than a lot of the other companies around.

              Why would anyone bury unprotected copper in soil? I do understand and have seen erosion of copper caused by aggressive soil conditions too but isn't that really the fault of the installer? When we bury copper, we sleeve it.

              What tests did you do on swett versus press connections and what validity do they hold? Its like Rick saying he tested stainless supplies to 800lbs. So what? 800 lbs is far beyond any working pressure found either commercially or residentially.

              The day to day operations of the business have been handled by my brother for about 10 years now. I still hold majority ownership and I still set policy. I may well hand everything over when I retire in a few years but I will still retain a seat on the board. I am neither scared or bitter. What will be, will be.

              I'm not the greatest plumber to have ever lived. Probably not even close. I learned and got where I am by making lots and lots of mistakes.....but I learned from most of them. My greatest strength is that I don't take things at face value. At this point in my life, you are a better plumber than I am. You are younger, stronger, faster and can keep at it longer. Hopefully you are hungry and are always looking ahead. Never stop asking questions and weigh the value of everything you do and use. What may seem like a real time saver today might turn into a problem down the road and remember the single most important word to anyone working in the trade or owning the company LIABILITY
              Last edited by NHMaster3015; 05-07-2014, 09:40 AM.
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              • #54
                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                I'll ask a question here and see what I get for answers. Do you prefer and island vent, waste stack vent or an AAV for an island sink install? All three are approved under IPC and UPC but which are you going to go with? The answer tells me a lot about the plumber and his mindset.
                Well, frankly I don't know, or do I. I'm high atop Camelback Mountain, looking down on the cities of Phoenix, Paradise Valley, and Scottsdale. They would like a wet bar in the center of their glassed in gazebo, that affords them a 360 degree million dollar view of the entire valley. Water and sewer are 3' down, while the nearest framed walls are 40' away. In addition to the sink, they want an icemaker, dishwasher, water heater and a r/o.

                Rather than install an AAV, I'll just through up my hands and walk away. Or I'll bite the bullet and suffer the scorn of the Master.

                Comment


                • NHMaster3015
                  NHMaster3015 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Good answer. Every job is different but given that any of the three methods could be used, which one is not likely to experience failure?

                  I swear, every state with mountains has one named camel back

              • #55
                Like it or not, good old ASTM B 813, has sure changed the way we are required to run copper.


                Uniform Plumbing Code - IAPMO IS 3-2006 - 2.2.4

                Soldering Flux

                The functions of the soldering flux are to remove residual traces of oxides, to promote wetting and to protect the surfaces to be soldered from oxidation during heating. The flux should be applied to clean surfaces and only enough should be used to lightly coat the areas to be joined.
                An oxide film may reform quickly on copper after it has been cleaned. Therefore, the flux should be applied as soon as possible after cleaning.

                CAUTION

                Careless workmanship, especially during flux applications, can result in corrosion of the tube long after the system has been installed. If excessive flux is used, the residue inside the tube can cause corrosion. In an extreme case, such residual flux can actually lead to perforation through the tube wall causing leakage. To guard against this danger, it is important (1) to choose a flux that is manufactured to ASTM B 813, and (2) to use only the
                minimum amount actually needed to make the joint.


                International Plumbing Code

                605.14.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32. The joining of water supply piping shall be made with lead-free solder and fluxes. "Lead free" shall mean a chemical composition equal to or less than 0.2-percent lead.

                Mark


                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                • PLUMBER RICK
                  PLUMBER RICK commented
                  Editing a comment
                  glad to see my water soluble flux is still the recognized standard. some just don't seem to believe me.

                  Rick.

                • NHMaster3015
                  NHMaster3015 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I believe, yes, I believe.........

              • #56


                Originally posted by ArizonaPlumber View Post

                Well, frankly I don't know, or do I. I'm high atop Camelback Mountain, looking down on the cities of Phoenix, Paradise Valley, and Scottsdale. They would like a wet bar in the center of their glassed in gazebo, that affords them a 360 degree million dollar view of the entire valley. Water and sewer are 3' down, while the nearest framed walls are 40' away. In addition to the sink, they want an icemaker, dishwasher, water heater and a r/o.

                Rather than install an AAV, I'll just through up my hands and walk away. Or I'll bite the bullet and suffer the scorn of the Master.
                Unded the UPC, AAV are still not accepted except by local amendments. I'd go island sink all the way.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • ArizonaPlumber
                  ArizonaPlumber commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Although allowed locally, we installed a foot vent. Surprised the inspector though.
                  Just stirring the pot.

                • NHMaster3015
                  NHMaster3015 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  That's something I haven't seen in a long time.

              • #57
                Maybe we all should go real old school and start chitting in the woods again.


                The hell with plumbing...

                Comment


                • NHMaster3015
                  NHMaster3015 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yes, yes indeed..........you first, and leave some paper on the roll

              • #58
                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post



                Unded the UPC, AAV are still not accepted except by local amendments. I'd go island sink all the way.

                Mark
                The maximum combined length of a 1-1/2" vent is 60' (Table 703.20 2012 UPC), so if he has a 40' horizontal run to the nearest wall and if the building is two or more stories, he would have to run a minimum 2" return vent.

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                • #59
                  But, he could waste stack vent it provided he can pick up a vent within the prescribed distance.
                  sigpic

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                  • #60
                    I'll bite. Island sink or any kitchen sink I install will get an AAV. unless the system doesn't have a hard vent anyplace else. only 1.5 inch pipe with the maximum fall I can get. I'm not knocking 2 inch but they both start to plug up in 13 years and 1.5 is easier for me to open up.

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                    • NHMaster3015
                      NHMaster3015 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Though I hate them, I would rather see an AAv on an island sink than a loop vent and the reason is because the loop vent will plug and nobody will ever know that it's plugged. At least with the AAV it will stink under the sink and someone will. My preference though is to wast stack vent it if possible and it usually is.
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