Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

    Thought I would share.

    I wanted to use Apollo Series 77 pro press connect ball valves in an Uponor pex potable water system. So I thought I would try propressing the brass uponor Pex x ftg swt adapters into the pro press connection. This way I could save the owner some time by not having to sweat the fitting. The diameter of the "ftg adapter size is the same as copper OD so I reasoned it ought to work.

    It seems to work on the 1/2" ball valves, but the 3/4" connections have had failures.

    I was subsequently informed by Ferguson counter people that pro pressing a Viega ftg connection voids the warranty. They assume it's the same for Uponor. They knew what I planned to do but weren't aware of the Viega guideline.

    I would not recommend this combination in the future. I'm now sweating the connections.
    Time flies like an arrow.

    Fruit flies like a banana.

  • #2
    Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

    Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
    Thought I would share.

    I wanted to use Apollo Series 77 pro press connect ball valves in an Uponor pex potable water system. So I thought I would try propressing the brass uponor Pex x ftg swt adapters into the pro press connection. This way I could save the owner some time by not having to sweat the fitting. The diameter of the "ftg adapter size is the same as copper OD so I reasoned it ought to work.

    It seems to work on the 1/2" ball valves, but the 3/4" connections have had failures.

    I was subsequently informed by Ferguson counter people that pro pressing a Viega ftg connection voids the warranty. They assume it's the same for Uponor. They knew what I planned to do but weren't aware of the Viega guidelinie.

    I would not recommend this combination in the future. I'm now sweating the connections.
    I don't agree. I have dozens of ftg. X mip or fip adapters that I press made by viega. From 1/2"-2". Then I have hundreds of ftg x crimp 90s and 45s 1/2"-4".

    Rick
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

      I can't imagine that ferguson would be right on this.
      Buy cheap, buy twice.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

        Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
        I can't imagine that ferguson would be right on this.
        Or Rick could be wrong

        Rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

          http://www.viega.us/cps/rde/xbcr/en-...24607_1113.pdf
          Buy cheap, buy twice.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

            I'm not going to read the manual again. But Ferguson could be correct.

            They don't make or list a Press to PEX adapter that I'm aware of 'cause I've asked more than once for it. I think I even called Viega about it a year ago. (Can't remember everything....)

            Then the sweat to PEX adapters they do make are brass/bronze and not tested and approved to be pressed into a press fitting. They may not be malleable enough and fracture or have insufficient seal for their standards.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

              P.S. Geno, your post doesn't make sense to me. You were trying to press male sweat x PEX adapters directly into Apollo Press Valves to go in a Uponor water system.

              That seems to only require Uponor ball valves. No?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

                Originally posted by BobsPlumbing View Post
                P.S. Geno, your post doesn't make sense to me. You were trying to press male sweat x PEX adapters directly into Apollo Press Valves to go in a Uponor water system.

                That seems to only require Uponor ball valves. No?
                Bob,

                I don't like the Uponor ball valves. The ones initially shown to me were hexagonal inside not round, and not full port, and the short handle was hard to operate. They cost more than the Apollo Series 77 which is a far superior valve. I was subsequently shown a different Uponor ball valve on Friday which seemed better but was still not a true 3/4" full port. (Anymore than 3/4" pex is truly 3/4").

                Rick,

                You're free to press whatever you want into whatever you want. This is America after all. All I'm saying is I experienced a 30% connection failure rate with the 3/4 valves. (1/2" valves had 100% success rate.) I didn't see anything in the Viega manual regarding pressing bronze or brass ftg adapters. I'm not sure that matters though, the valve was Apollo and the Ftg adapter was Uponor. I'm "assuming" Uponor would also say it's a no no.

                Sometime this week i'll cut a couple of the joints apart to see it i can determine what failed. Did the Brass crack, or buckle? If so, did it cut the O-ring?
                Time flies like an arrow.

                Fruit flies like a banana.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

                  That might be your issue. You're using 2 different brands and they're goint to point the finger at each other.

                  I use viega and haven't had an issue with fitting adapters x press.

                  Rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

                    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                    That might be your issue. You're using 2 different brands and they're goint to point the finger at each other.

                    I use viega and haven't had an issue with fitting adapters x press.

                    Rick.
                    What adapters are you pressing? Male sweat adapters x a,b,c etc. into Press? Do you ever press a male sweat x PEX crimp adapter into a Press fitting?

                    Thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

                      I don't do pex, yet.

                      The adapters are typically a brass ftg x mip or fip adapter. These are viega adapters. Of course ftg. X press 90s and 45s. Aka st 90 and st. 45.

                      I've tried traditional copper ftg. X mip sweat fittings and they are a shorter ftg. Length. The viegas cost more, but they are a longer throw and work.

                      Rick.
                      phoebe it is

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

                        Something to consider is uponor uses brass...we all seen the brittleness of lead free brass. Viega uses bronze....much higher quality and I'd imagine less prone to cracking. Perhaps that's why the 1/2" worked and the 3/4" didn't?
                        Buy cheap, buy twice.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

                          Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                          Something to consider is uponor uses brass...we all seen the brittleness of lead free brass. Viega uses bronze....much higher quality and I'd imagine less prone to cracking. Perhaps that's why the 1/2" worked and the 3/4" didn't?
                          A tech sheet on Apollo Series 77 ball valves... http://www.apollovalves.com/_products/77w/TS_77W.pdf does not refer to connection limitations other than saying compatible "Ridgid * press tool". So I thought I would refer to a Ridgid press tool to see what's acceptable.

                          A Ridgid RP-340 manual doesn't refer what can or can not be pressed except for page 5 of the manual which states: <Selection of appropriate materials and joining methods is the responsibility of the system designer and/or installer. Before any installation is attempted, careful evaluation of the specific service environment, including chemical environment and service temperature, should be completed. Consult Press Fitting System manufacturer for selection information.>

                          Tomorrow I might have a couple minutes to cut apart a joint to see what specifically failed.
                          Time flies like an arrow.

                          Fruit flies like a banana.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

                            Geno I do this on a regular basis however there are two different male saucer x propress adaptors and yes the short ones won't work. Kind of Russian roulette as far as which ones the whole saker sells you I have had both half inch and three quarter male adaptors that would leak if crimped nothing as failed. Sorry to point the finger please don't take offence. But the problem was human error not fitting failure the adaptors are not long enough to bottom out in the propress if you had of pushed the propex adaptor till it bottomed out you would have close to 3/16" of the pex adaptor within the valve not allowing a proper wirsbo connection. I believe you pushed the adaptor to the begining of the pp adaptor. I only know this from experience I haven't had a batch of the short ones in quote some time I think it was the first few batches of lead free adaptors. But great topic and I'm always glad to hear warnings from other guys I usually use fip propress bye mip wirsbo adaptors to prevent warranty issues between the two manufactures where possible.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Discovered something that doesn't work too well.

                              Just one word for you folks "LIABILITY" In the hands of a good lawyer, what you think will be fine often is often the cause of the loss of your business.

                              No pex or pro-press manufacturers will warrenty thier product when it is improperly used or used in conjunction with other manufacturers products unless the combination has been tested and approved by a 3rd party.
                              sigpic

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X