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  • #16
    Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

    This has been worked over pretty good. The good plumbers are right. You have to put in ALL the factors to determine if it's what the customer wants. Not always what they need though.

    Still, there are a ton more things that can cause problems with them vs. traditional. And the majority of the time they will not save money. I've seen people that wanted to believe in theirs so much they change their use behavior so they can say they use less gas.

    With all the back and forth though, the instructor at the class I recently attended gave the inclination that the whole US is steering towards these for the future.

    Good luck troubleshooting on late Friday afternoons when you go to a call and don't know if it's gonna be Takagi, Noritz, Rinnai, Bosch, Rheem/Paloma etc.

    All different. No replacing the thermocouple and having a happy customer.

    J.C.

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    • #17
      Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

      [Good luck troubleshooting on late Friday afternoons when you go to a call and don't know if it's gonna be Takagi, Noritz, Rinnai, Bosch, Rheem/Paloma etc.]All different. No replacing the thermocouple and having a happy customer.

      J.C.[/quote]
      ah very good grasshopper, we only service what we sell, learned that lesson real quick, and we make sure to tell those that buy that if something happens on the weekend or night it usually well have to wait untill the next business day for repairs,our suppliers will let us strip what we need from demo units to make repairs, theve got to start stocking parts soon to many of these units are going into the field.

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      • #18
        Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
        With all the back and forth though, the instructor at the class I recently attended gave the inclination that the whole US is steering towards these for the future.
        But don't they need natural gas?

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        • #19
          Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

          To my knowledge they are available in Natural Gas, Propane (LP), and Electric.
          The electric I've looked at (SEISCO-SEITS) pretty much wouldn't keep up with most demands but I haven't looked at them in a while. They need huge amounts of power also so one would have to allow for this for new installs and remodels. Obvious, I know.

          J.C.

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          • #20
            Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
            Good luck troubleshooting on late Friday afternoons when you go to a call and don't know if it's gonna be Takagi, Noritz, Rinnai, Bosch, Rheem/Paloma etc. J.C.

            I have to agree with aero1 on this. With regards to tankless we will only service what we sell. We realized early on that tankless units are complex in there design. You need a company that will back the product with full time support. For us Noritz fits the bill. There local to SoCal. They have a top notch training center. They have an open door emergency will call department. Nice, if there is an issue or we need a part or a unit ASAP, we simply place the order with our plumbing supply house and send someone over to Noritz to get the part.

            I have also found that consumers now days will not call from the yellow pages for repairs on technical items. They usually call the manufacture, who then directs them to an authorizied repair company.

            If I am not mistaken I believe Noritz provides a 24/7 line for this.

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            • #21
              Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

              A couple of you posted about Recirc systems, and no added benefit with a tankless. Or what do you do if there is no recirc line.


              Here is the solution to that problem.

              http://www.grundfos.com/web/HomeUs.n...ag/OMAT-6DMQV8

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              • #22
                Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

                Originally posted by Watersurgeon View Post
                I have to agree with aero1 on this. With regards to tankless we will only service what we sell. We realized early on that tankless units are complex in there design. You need a company that will back the product with full time support. For us Noritz fits the bill. There local to SoCal. They have a top notch training center. They have an open door emergency will call department. Nice, if there is an issue or we need a part or a unit ASAP, we simply place the order with our plumbing supply house and send someone over to Noritz to get the part.

                I have also found that consumers now days will not call from the yellow pages for repairs on technical items. They usually call the manufacture, who then directs them to an authorizied repair company.

                If I am not mistaken I believe Noritz provides a 24/7 line for this.
                I don't know whether to agree or disagree with this. A plumber traditionally gets a call and goes to help. Would you only work on Delta faucets because that's what you sell?

                While certain companies will dominate an area, tankless units can be bought and shipped through the net. So, in the future, different types are going to be everywhere.

                When you get 5 calls one week for Rinnais, 4 the next for Takagi, 4 after that for Bosch (ugh!), are you going to consistently tell them "No, it's not a Noritz."?

                Maybe I need to change, but traditionally, you call-I go.

                And if I don't change, I can see it being a pain in the A$$ to keep track of all these things to keep them running.

                J.C.

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                • #23
                  Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                  I don't know whether to agree or disagree with this. A plumber traditionally gets a call and goes to help. Would you only work on Delta faucets because that's what you sell? J.C.
                  There is a substantial difference between a faucet and a tankless water heater. Tankless heaters are complex and require a lot of training to understand how they operate and how to diagnose problems and how to effeciently tear them down for a repair. Each manufacture makes there's different. It's not a matter of pulling out a manual. You really need the hands on training. Also I have yet to find a tankless manufacture that will allow a warranty repair by an non-trained company.

                  The bottom line is that its a business decision. As I have mentioned we went the Noritz route for several reasons. a) there local b) they are the largest manufacture c) they offer more technical features in there units then anyone else d) they have a second to non-support system

                  You have to remember we are an industrial company. Were not getting "Joe Consumer" calls. The last thing I want is someone going out to work on a Bosch, and spending countless hours trying to trouble shoot a unit. Not to mention the fact that he won't have parts for it. As a business person first I have to weight, "The Point of Diminishing Return"

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                  While certain companies will dominate an area, tankless units can be bought and shipped through the net. So, in the future, different types are going to be everywhere. J.C.
                  And who is installing these units, the consumer. I doubt it, unless they have a plumbing background.

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                  When you get 5 calls one week for Rinnais, 4 the next for Takagi, 4 after that for Bosch (ugh!), are you going to consistently tell them "No, it's not a Noritz."?J.C.
                  To answer that, if I worked in the arena were we received that many calls, then 1) I would have my guys trained on all brands, by the factory, even if it ment flying them there. 2) I would stock parts to support those products which did not have local availability.

                  As I mentioned in my earlier post. Specialty items, like tankless heaters, when they go out the average consumer is a) going to call the company that put it in, and b) if they can't get a hold of them there going to call the manufacture direct to find an authorizied service company.

                  All add this example. Our speciality is industrial water treatement. We do however do home water treatement systems for our industrial customers homes when they want something. We do 'Bro Deals" for family, employees, friends that type of thing. If someone needs a water purification sytem, we use Hydrotech units. I have been associated with this company since it was started in the early 80's. There product is bullet proof. Since I have had a long outstanding relationship with them, we end up getting on average about 1 call a week from a consumer that was referred to us by Hydrotech. We do service these people because of the referall. However if you called us out of the blue for service on an R.O. other then Hydrotech we would decline. Not because we could not service it, but because of the liability with cheap inferior products. If the person is willing to replace a system over the phone then all send someone out. Otherwise we suggest there "Fingers do the Walking."

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                  • #24
                    Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

                    You make some excellent points WS. I'd have to study the differences in market demand between where you are and where I am.

                    I've been the traditional plumber that if you call, I go and don't stop until it's repaired correctly.

                    But like I said you make some good points where it might be more profitable to "specialize" towards a certain customer segement with specific products & service for those products.

                    I do feel that I'm in an area that if I "let there fingers do the walking" on different items I would lose alot of business.

                    But with your model, I might gain enough of the other. I'll have to study it.

                    Argh! Thinking hurts my head.

                    J.C.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

                      last night i got a call at 4:00 in the afternoon tankless heater power surge due to lightning strike that had occurred tues night,8 month old unit, plumbing company that installed it very slow to repond,finally came out and said sorry call an electrician, they did he came out checked the breaker and fuses and that was all he felt comfortable doing, so customer calls me been with out hot water since tuesday come to find out its a paloma tankless heater, home depot, and the plumber that put it in told her they got it at ferguson, so she calls and is told sorry we sell rinnai but paloma and rheem have merged i didnt even know that, so i give her nolandS phone# and they tell her as far as they know there is no locale rep and she calls paloma and gets no where with them. so cause ive got a heart and these people were really getting jerked around i broke my own rule and got involved come to find out there is no factory service in south carolina no parts available locally and unless you sign up to be one of palomas installers there web site is useless, go out and look the pcb board is fried so unless the homeowner can get one well probably end up installing a rinnai. the very sad thing was these people were lied to and mislead by a comapny that cared more about the money than the human factor involved, so i will do what i can to help. and no all of these units perform the same function but are completely different component wise as well as interior set up axis to parts and besides why in the hell would you sell anybody anything that you could not repair and parts were not readily available and along with the good technical support, as there will be a learning curve for probably all that are licensed to install these interstellar devices
                      Last edited by aero1; 06-14-2008, 04:43 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Rinnai Continuous Flow Water Heaters

                        Good guy to try and help her out. But you do reinforce my point. More and more of this is going to happen.....& who's gonna fix it?

                        And another reason I'm not behind tankless alot.

                        How many tank gas water heaters have you encountered in the past with trouble from lightning or a power surge?

                        More expensive, more maintenance, more problems. Even if there was just one type with parts everywhere. My opinion.

                        J.C.

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