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  • #31
    Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

    Edited: read post below
    Last edited by Velosapien; 10-01-2007, 10:50 PM.

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    • #32
      Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

      Originally posted by workerbob View Post
      Dewalt is behind in the game since Milwaukee, Makita, Ridgid, and Ryobi all have Lithium.
      How do you figure that? They were among the first to offer lithium ion and they pulled if off with probably the least technical snags. Ridgid had a rocky start with lithium ion which is still undertain if some of the kinks have been worked out, ryobi just got them last week, and milwaukee suffered overheating problems.

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      • #33
        Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

        Originally posted by workerbob View Post
        Sorry, I don't believe DW's website or DW for anything they say about other companies. They should just give their products advantages and not throw mud..and mud that is totally off. It is common knowledge that the Makita Lithium gets 1800 charges and that it can charge in 45 minutes. Dewalt is known for skewing numbers. Dewalt is behind in the game since Milwaukee, Makita, Ridgid, and Ryobi all have Lithium. Dewalt has to sling mud to make up for lost ground. Believe what you want but I won't believe the kings of marketing Black and Decker.

        Its all marketing, from everybody. I don't know where you get the 1800 charges from as that number is obvious marketing itself. I highly doubt anyone is actually getting that high a cycle rate of more than 400-600 full cycles for their batteries because it goes against all the technical knowledge out there. That is that lithium ion has a LOWER cycle rate than older technologies. Nobody has really figured out the magic formula to solve that rather fundamental limitation. Any manufacturer can skew the numbers in their favor. The difference is a cycle with NiCD doesn't matter whether its half charged or empty. Once it's popped to charge it's a cycle. Lithium ion, if the battery only drains 50% then when you charge it, it's 1/2 of a cycle. If they estimate that people don't always fully drain their batteries before poping them in the charger then they can massage the numbers to mean anhything, like a cycle can be every time the person puts the battery is topped of on the charger assuming it's done on an average at 2/3 drain.

        Unlike Dewalt and Milwaukee who worked directly with battery manufacturers to develop their own respective battery technologies, Makita went with off the shelf Sony batteries. I bet if we look up the specs for Sony batteries they will contradict those numbers. They avoided a large amount of development time and costs by going with more basic batteries. Thats why they were able to come out so early with lithium ion tools in large quantities. For what its worth A123 systems, who makes the nano-phosphate chemistry batteries for Dewalt is considered the most advanced lithium ion technology currently on the market by most reputable companies and engineers who have nothing to do with Dewalt.

        Techincally speaking there is a reason Dewalt's claims hold some water. They are the only manufacturer using nano-phosphate chemistry. All others use conventional manganese based chemistry. Manganese cells have higher voltage of 3.9v peak charge voltage and 3.6v nominal. Nano-phosphate has a peak charge voltage of 3.6v and 3.3v nominal. Guess what the number one factor cutting a lithium ion's cycle capacity is? Higher voltage. Cells that run at 3.3v have considerably higher cycle capacity. Sony I believe Sony actually uses a variation based on cobalt manganese chemistry. This type has the highest energy density of high current capable cells. It can peake at 4.10v. This comes at a huge disadvantage since such a high voltage means the cycle life is almost cut in half. Lithium cobalt manganese cells have a known cycle life of as little as 300. While A123 phospahate batteris have the lowest energy density (slightly less than lithium manganese), that means thet are the most stable at heavy discharging. They can remain stable up to 100c where others will only do 80c before catastrphic failure. Phosphate batteries tend to fail mostly harmlessly as opposed to manganese, and even worse, the old cobalt based which pretty much means get the hell away and call the fire department.

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        • #34
          Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

          Whew!! Thank goodness for battery warranties. Regardless of the technology, manufacturer, R&D process, or claimed number of cycles, unless you're paying out of pocket for a replacement, it's going to come down to whether you can get your battery replaced if there's a problem. I know what's being said is that the technology is being developed to produce a dependable power source with a long life for the end user. But, nothing is going to make me happier in a failed battery situation than the company coming to my rescue with a zero cost replacement. At something over $100 per, replacing lithium ion batteries is pretty low on everyone's list of favorites. So, given that companies may have initial problems, or make some incredible boast as to cycle properties, it still comes down to the battery warranty and the manufacturers' willingness to make it right for the end user. Just an opinion, if no thing lasts forever, at least let it fail within the warranty period.

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          • #35
            Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

            Originally posted by Velosapien View Post
            Its all marketing, from everybody. I don't know where you get the 1800 charges from as that number is obvious marketing itself. I highly doubt anyone is actually getting that high a cycle rate of more than 400-600 full cycles for their batteries because it goes against all the technical knowledge out there. That is that lithium ion has a LOWER cycle rate than older technologies. Nobody has really figured out the magic formula to solve that rather fundamental limitation. Any manufacturer can skew the numbers in their favor. The difference is a cycle with NiCD doesn't matter whether its half charged or empty. Once it's popped to charge it's a cycle. Lithium ion, if the battery only drains 50% then when you charge it, it's 1/2 of a cycle. If they estimate that people don't always fully drain their batteries before poping them in the charger then they can massage the numbers to mean anhything, like a cycle can be every time the person puts the battery is topped of on the charger assuming it's done on an average at 2/3 drain.

            Unlike Dewalt and Milwaukee who worked directly with battery manufacturers to develop their own respective battery technologies, Makita went with off the shelf Sony batteries. I bet if we look up the specs for Sony batteries they will contradict those numbers. They avoided a large amount of development time and costs by going with more basic batteries. Thats why they were able to come out so early with lithium ion tools in large quantities. For what its worth A123 systems, who makes the nano-phosphate chemistry batteries for Dewalt is considered the most advanced lithium ion technology currently on the market by most reputable companies and engineers who have nothing to do with Dewalt.

            Techincally speaking there is a reason Dewalt's claims hold some water. They are the only manufacturer using nano-phosphate chemistry. All others use conventional manganese based chemistry. Manganese cells have higher voltage of 3.9v peak charge voltage and 3.6v nominal. Nano-phosphate has a peak charge voltage of 3.6v and 3.3v nominal. Guess what the number one factor cutting a lithium ion's cycle capacity is? Higher voltage. Cells that run at 3.3v have considerably higher cycle capacity. Sony I believe Sony actually uses a variation based on cobalt manganese chemistry. This type has the highest energy density of high current capable cells. It can peake at 4.10v. This comes at a huge disadvantage since such a high voltage means the cycle life is almost cut in half. Lithium cobalt manganese cells have a known cycle life of as little as 300. While A123 phospahate batteris have the lowest energy density (slightly less than lithium manganese), that means thet are the most stable at heavy discharging. They can remain stable up to 100c where others will only do 80c before catastrphic failure. Phosphate batteries tend to fail mostly harmlessly as opposed to manganese, and even worse, the old cobalt based which pretty much means get the hell away and call the fire department.
            You can quote technical jargin all you want and you can drink kool aid too. The Dewalt site says their XRP battery gets more cycles than a Makita or Milwaukee lithium Ion. The Makita is supposed to get 1800 and there is no skewing or slinging mud done when they said that 2 years ago. It is a known fact that Nicd gets about 400-800 and lithim gets easily double that number. Dewalt is false advertising by saying they can get more out of XRP NICD than a lithium. Dewalt XRP batteries are known to fail early in their life. Go ask any contractor how many XRP batteries they have bought over the years and it is amazing...now those are real people not websites.

            You think Makita picked a battery off the shelf and shoved it in their tool? I think you would be mistaken. Makita also has a chip in their battery and in the charger which can tell you technical information about the battery and it's life.

            You speak of battery failure and fires. I have yet to hear of a Makita battery failure that has lead to a fire. The Miluakee had a recall because of issues.
            Last edited by workerbob; 10-02-2007, 10:55 PM.

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            • #36
              Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

              Funny, now when presented with some facts its technical jargon? I guess I should just go with marketing. You complain a lot about Dewalt marketing yet seem to have no problems with eating up makita's marketing.

              Originally posted by workerbob View Post
              It is a known fact that Nicd gets about 400-800 and lithium gets easily double that number. Dewalt is false advertising by saying they can get more out of XRP NICD than a lithium. Dewalt XRP batteries are known to fail early in their life. Go ask any contractor how many XRP batteries they have bought over the years and it is amazing...now those are real people not websites.
              Lithium Ion does not get higher cycle than Nicad. Read what I said about partial discharges which can make a difference but at full cycle's they are generally lower. There is no hard set rule because so many factors are involved. Oh, and makita actually claims 1400 cycles so don't know where you get 1800 from.

              You can ask any contractor what they prefer and every single one will tell you whatever they prefer is better. For everyone that hates Dewalt there's one that swears by them. For everyone that loves Makita there's another that hates them.

              You think Makita picked a battery off the shelf and shoved it in their tool? I think you would be mistaken. Makita also has a chip in their battery and in the charger which can tell you technical information about the battery and it's life.
              Yes, they did. Sony was the first to independantly develop the VT series of lithium ion cells capable of high discharge so they went with their cells to be able to quickly break into the market. Sony VT series cells are interestingly enough rated at 500 cycles.

              Every single lithium ion battery pack in the market regardless of it being a power tool battery or laptop battery or anything else has a computer monitoring the cell charge. Without it the batteries would die once drained too low and very literelly explode without something monitoring their charge limit. This is not a Makita exclusive feature, no matter what you read on their website

              You speak of battery failure and fires. I have yet to hear of a Makita battery failure that has lead to a fire.
              None of the Makita batteries have ever been recalled. But sony recently had a 10 million battery recall for some batches of batteries after multiple explosive failures. Never believe the possibility is not there.

              You speak about not chewing up marketing nonsense yet thats really all you're doing. Seriously, your comments boil down to not liking Dewalt, which is fine, but go look up some information on lithium ion instead of quoting off Makita's website. This information is quite widely available.
              Last edited by Velosapien; 10-02-2007, 10:19 AM.

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              • #37
                Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

                In the end cycle life is actually quite irrelevant because chances are the batteries are going to be dead long before the cycle rate is reached. All Lithium Ion batteries age and loose about 20% of their capacity every year. Even more if not kept in warm or hot conditions extensively. Their natural aging is actually the most common cause of failure. Never buy more lithium ion batteries than you need. They will degrade even if you don't use them. Try to buy batteries that have been manufactured as recently as possible. They start deteriorating as soon as they come off the assembly line. That means avoid those dusty kits sitting in the back of the store shelfs for the last year.

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                • #38
                  Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

                  sorry, should read: Even more if kept in warm or hot conditions extensively.
                  Edit function won't work.

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                  • #39
                    Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

                    You can't rely on any of the manufacturers sites. I don't like to see one company sling mud at the others. The XRP batteries are inferior to Li-Ion and Dewalt claims they are just as good or better. I find that to be false advertising.

                    Buy the tool that fits the job. I like the better tool not the one with flashy ads and cool sponserships. Bosch, Ridgid, Makita,Dewalt, etc. all make a quality tool, but don't I try not to let hype and advertising affect my decision.
                    Last edited by workerbob; 10-02-2007, 10:53 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

                      Originally posted by workerbob View Post
                      Lets not even get into how the motors are made with Dewalt.
                      Do tell.......

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                      • #41
                        Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

                        Originally posted by workerbob View Post
                        You can't rely on any of the manufacturers sites. I don't like to see one company sling mud at the others. The XRP batteries are inferior to Li-Ion and Dewalt claims they are just as good or better. I find that to be false advertising.

                        Buy the tool that fits the job. I like the better tool not the one with flashy ads and cool sponserships. Bosch, Ridgid, Makita,Dewalt, etc. all make a quality tool, but don't I try not to let hype and advertising affect my decision.
                        I think if you go back and read all of our discussions here you'll understand that most of what we talk about is disecting what basis in reality most of those claims have. Some of it has some basis in fact some of it is wildly twisted. About what you refer to on the Dewalt NiCD cycle life, there is some truth to it, but its not just Dewalt's NiCD. That applies to Makita, Milwaukee, and the technology in general. They just conveniently leave out that everyones NiCD batteries do about the same.

                        I actually have Makita's 6 tool LXT group and some of the tools are great, some where nothing short of a spectacular dissapointment.

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                        • #42
                          Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

                          workerbob,

                          In terms of "mud slinging", if you want to call it that, DeWalt have done nothing in terms of making claims that hasn't been done by any other manufacturer in the past. For some reason you are singling out DeWalt here as if they are somehow hitting below the belt. I mean it's advertising, what do you want them to say? Of course they are going to say their batteries are better than everyone else's. All lithium ion power tool makers have some sort of claim that attempts to put themselves above the others.

                          I noticed too that you seem to have removed some of your stuff from your post, especially with regard to DeWalt copying other manufacturers. But with if you want to look at it from that perspective, then you could also say that Makita have obviously had a look at DeWalt's XRP line and started copying every tool that they do from XRP. I mean, an angle grinder, jigsaw, flourescent worklight, concrete vibrator, rotary hammer. DeWalt have had those for quite a while, and now Makita is trying to duplicate them. Instead of trying to think of new ideas for tools they are just trying to make the same thing. I guess Makita came out with that 4-in-1 hybrid impact/drill, but I hear it's a bit of a flop.

                          Anyway, I don't personally care if they are copying DeWalt or not, I'm just trying to illustrate the point. Especially when talking about ultimately trivial features such as LEDs in the handle and ringtones in the battery charger. Really anyone can do that. That's not really that innovative.

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                          • #43
                            Re: New dewalt drill and impact driver

                            Originally posted by Sceeter W Wheels View Post
                            workerbob,

                            In terms of "mud slinging", if you want to call it that, DeWalt have done nothing in terms of making claims that hasn't been done by any other manufacturer in the past. For some reason you are singling out DeWalt here as if they are somehow hitting below the belt. I mean it's advertising, what do you want them to say? Of course they are going to say their batteries are better than everyone else's. All lithium ion power tool makers have some sort of claim that attempts to put themselves above the others.

                            I noticed too that you seem to have removed some of your stuff from your post, especially with regard to DeWalt copying other manufacturers. But with if you want to look at it from that perspective, then you could also say that Makita have obviously had a look at DeWalt's XRP line and started copying every tool that they do from XRP. I mean, an angle grinder, jigsaw, flourescent worklight, concrete vibrator, rotary hammer. DeWalt have had those for quite a while, and now Makita is trying to duplicate them. Instead of trying to think of new ideas for tools they are just trying to make the same thing. I guess Makita came out with that 4-in-1 hybrid impact/drill, but I hear it's a bit of a flop.

                            Anyway, I don't personally care if they are copying DeWalt or not, I'm just trying to illustrate the point. Especially when talking about ultimately trivial features such as LEDs in the handle and ringtones in the battery charger. Really anyone can do that. That's not really that innovative.

                            I agree to an extent about the trivial nature of some of those additions but in the tool world as in any company those little innovations you speak of are huge. A Dewalt representative was telling me how they were the only ones allowed to have a charging radio. Bosch did it too and from what I understand they pay Dewalt for that right. Trivial to some but big money to the companies themselves.

                            I know it is just advertising but people believe what they advertise even if it is not reality.

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