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18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

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  • #16
    Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

    I'm going to look into getting some of those. Alkalines are an annoying expense because there is so much need for them. I haven't used rechargables because it's just totally impractical to have to be recharging remote control batteries every few days.

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    • #17
      Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

      Originally posted by GilBeQuick View Post
      On a side note, people complain about battery pack prices. IMO they're overpriced for what you get, no doubt, but they're gotta make money to stay in business. You can get top quality 3600 mah (3.6A/H) cells for around $6 a pop. $6 X 15cells = $90, and that's just for the cells. I'm sure the big companies could get major volume discounts, so maybe they can get them for $4.50/cell. That's still almost $68 for just the cells, not the casing or time/labor/packaging/shipping/markup to make profit added into that.
      The manufacturers DO get a huge discount. That is why you will see RC hobbiests buying DeWalt 36 volt LiIon packs to tear apart for the batteries inside. It is cheaper to buy them this way than as individual cells. DeWalt uses the same A123 cells that are sold for $18 to $20 per cell. The packs can be found at some online stores for as little as $140 ($14 per cells) and sometimes on Ebay for as little as $100 ($10 per cell.)

      If people are selling the packs for $10/battery it is likely that DeWalt is paying considerably less for them...maybe $6 or $8 dollars.
      Last edited by Disaster; 09-27-2007, 08:50 AM.

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      • #18
        Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

        Originally posted by GilBeQuick View Post
        2400 mah cells were outdated a few years ago in the hobby industry, and for some reason they're considered high quality today in the power tool industry. When power tool manufacturers use higher quality cells, the prices go down quickly because they buy in such high volumes. They should quit being cheap!
        It has to do with durability and self discharge rates. It is much harder to produce a higher Ah battery that is "robust." Also, higher Ah batteries necessarily have higher self discharge rates which make them much less desireable for tools, which might sit a several weeks between use. RC racers don't mind topping off their batteries before a race but contractors would find that a huge hassle.

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        • #19
          Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

          Originally posted by Velosapien View Post
          Alkaline's are rated at 1.5v even though their curve drops sharply down to 1.2v in like the first 5%. They are realistically about 1.25v which is why it's ok to use NiMH or NiCD in devices that use alkaline batteries.
          Alkalines don't just drop as they wear out, they drop tremendously with current draw because the slow dry chemistry used. That is why they work poorly for higher drain devices like flashes and digital cameras. It takes maybe 3 seconds to recharge my camera flash with rechargeables, more like 20 with alkalines.

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          • #20
            Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

            Actually there are AA sized lithium cells that put out 1.5V and are drop-in replacements for the usual AA alkalines. I forget who makes them (I believe it's Energizer or one of those big companies). They are not rechargeable though.

            Originally posted by Velosapien View Post
            Lithium ion can't fill that role.

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            • #21
              Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

              http://www.energizer.com/products/lithium/default.aspx

              http://www.energizer.com/products/lithium/faqs.aspx

              They come in AAA and AA sizes now. They aren't cheap, but they do hold up very well in the devices they were intended to be used in.
              Last edited by Woussko; 09-27-2007, 06:50 PM.

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              • #22
                Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

                Thanks, Woussko.

                I think too that they are the only ones making them right now, but could be wrong on that.

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                • #23
                  Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

                  Yeah, actually plain lithium (non ion) cells are a very old technology. They are also used as the typical coin type batteries and have been used in camera batteries for decades. Plain lithium batteries are a little bit of a different animal though. They can not be rechargable since batteries with actual lithium are extremely unstable during recharge. Lithium is a very unstable element. That's where the break through in lithium ion comes in. Lithium ion rechargables contiain no actual lithium, or extremely little, they just use lithium ion's to achieve a stable product, hence the name. Like Disaster stated, there are drop in replacement in standard sizes but they will only work in devices where one cell can take the place of at least two or three standard ~1.2v cells. Devices that use less cells will could/will get fried if you drop in a 3.6v lithium ion cell. Then there's the issue of the protection circuits. The good thing about lithium ion is that the technology still has a lot of headroom to evolve so I wouldn't doubt that we'll see them start filling roles that are currenty impossible or impractical.
                  Last edited by Velosapien; 09-27-2007, 06:58 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

                    Originally posted by Woussko View Post
                    http://www.energizer.com/products/lithium/default.aspx

                    http://www.energizer.com/products/lithium/faqs.aspx

                    They come in AAA and AA sizes now. They aren't cheap, but they do hold up very well in the devices they were intended to be used in.
                    Thats sort of what I was refering to. Lithium batteries have been used in custom camera style batteries for a long time. The technology was invented in the 70's. I have Canon SLR cameras from the 80's that already used lithium batteries. Energizer got a clue and is making them in standard sizes since so many electronics and cemeras run on AAA and AA batteries.
                    Last edited by Velosapien; 09-27-2007, 07:10 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

                      The jist that I have heard from that scene is that the A123 cells kick major a-ss too.

                      I don't think that DeWalt is exploiting the maximum capabilities of the cells though. They seem to limit the tools to a certain level (such as the circular saw battery protection phenomenon I mentioned in the other thread) probably with the intent of ensuring that the battery will last a long time. But I think the A123 cells can put out something like 70Amps. They can also be charged much faster than 1 hour as well. But typically when you start pushing things like that, the batteries will wear out faster in terms of charge cycles.

                      Originally posted by Disaster View Post
                      That is why you will see RC hobbiests buying DeWalt 36 volt LiIon packs to tear apart for the batteries inside.

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                      • #26
                        Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

                        Dewalt marketing aside, A123 systems is the battery of choice anyone who wants cuting edge batteries for their projects. All the high tech gadgets and most of those prototype electric cars choose their technology. You can read all the information about them out there and they are clearly very highly regarded. Dewalt seems to have taken a safe approach to their batteries. My guess is they need to establish a reputation first that the batteries will not fail. Not to mention keep service calls low. It's will cost them a pretty penny if they have to start replacing an excessive amount of batteries under warranty. I had pointed out earlier in another thread their original marketing claimed 90% charge in 5 minutes. This is possible since the lower energy density of high current draw cells have the advantage they can charge much faster. Makita is taking full advantage of this with their new fast chargers but I'm wondering how this will affect their longetivity.

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                        • #27
                          Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

                          Originally posted by Sceeter W Wheels View Post
                          The jist that I have heard from that scene is that the A123 cells kick major a-ss too.

                          Very soon it might not just be RC cars, but the real thing. They are being used in several electric car prototypes.

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                          • #28
                            Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

                            There was also an article about them being used in a rope lift system for rescue workers (kind of like a "Batman" sort of thing ) Pretty cool!

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                            • #29
                              Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

                              I remember seeing that. Quite cool, it was developed by some MIT students if I remember correctly.

                              Here's a report about A123's latest technology and it's very positive.
                              http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/sep07/5490

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                              • #30
                                Re: 18v Ridgid cordless drills, battteries & torque

                                Check out the new RYOBI cordless kit for $259.00
                                http://www.ryobitools.com/lithium/
                                Last edited by bob bridgewater; 09-27-2007, 08:36 PM.
                                =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
                                Be safe out there folks
                                Bob B
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