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  • #31
    Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

    And as a PS, I have never been that bothered changing batteries. I just always keep one charged. I don't really get all the fuss about longer AH, but then maybe I am not QUITE the connoisseur that I think I am
    A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

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    • #32
      Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

      Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
      And as a PS, I have never been that bothered changing batteries. I just always keep one charged. I don't really get all the fuss about longer AH, but then maybe I am not QUITE the connoisseur that I think I am
      Not me, man, the only thing that bothers me worse than running low on juice so I have to recharge before I can finish a job is to pick up a tool only to find I need to charge it before I can even get started.

      I think this depends a great deal on whether you have a few cordless tools that you use to zap a screw in, or drill a hole here or there....or whether you have a cordless arsenal that you intend on doing nearly everything with. In the latter case, if you get low on battery power, it knocks you right out of commision. The only way to keep going is to run back and get your corded tool, find an outlet and......grrrrrrrrrrrr. Makes you curse and ask yourself why you bought the darn things in the first place.

      I can remember way too often working on a bigger job where I got "ahead" of the batteries. Before I knew it I was down to my last one and the tool was starting to strain and the reserves were waiting to cool to recharge. Heck, I used to use the "stuff 'em in the freezer" trick to speed up the process.

      For my 1.7Ah Ryobi OnePlus stuff I kept 4 batteries on hand. With the Ridgid 24 volt tools I can get as much work done with one battery as took 3 OnePlus batteries, and I don't have to go through the crazy battery cooling rigmarole. I'm loving it.

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      • #33
        Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

        Since I've done a lot of complaining about longer AH's, I'll give my reasons again. I like to think that as technology improves to give us better or more user friendly products, we don't lose anything in the mix. I don't want a car that gives me fifty miles to a gallon and only a three gallon tank! I'm use to the 2.5 AH nicad, but a 3.0 AH lithium would be even better. The weight doesn't bother me and the rewards of steady power and longer run times without having to recharge are part of the benefits of progress I mentioned. I have no problem with the offering of a compact, lighter and lower AH battery, it's a great idea for those who don't need that longer run time. Just understand the usefulness of a longer run time through higher AH's for the guys who are using their tools hard, are working a distance from their charger, and don't want to waste time switching and charging batteries when it would be so simple to just give them a product that is profitable to make and sell. I recenty saw a Panasonic 15.6 volt NIMH drill, it had a 3.5AH battery. My point is that there is a market for the higher AH battery, so what's the down side of giving it to us? Maybe I don't know enough about design and technolongy but it seems simple enough to double the size of that compact lithium and have a 3.0 AH product. Ridgid would have bragging rights over Ryobi (2.4AH) and Dewalt (2.4AH). I like my 18 volt Ridgid tools, I just think if they're going to offer advances in technology they shouldn't weaken the product with shorter run times than the older technology 18 volt 2.5AH nicads. I want it all, and I'll pay for it. Give me an 18 volt lithium 3.0 or greater, give me lithiums for my other Ridgid tools 12 and 14.4 volt. Give me a wall of single and double packed lithiums and single and double bay chargers at my local Home Depot. If Ridgid is in the business of selling tools and making money, then they need to give the customer what he/she wants. Why do I have to switch brands in order to get a higher AH lithium battery? The answer is I shouldn't, because it would be a foolish move to have all those 18 volt tools out there and instead of leading the group of manufacturers with a substantial run time lithium battery, be the one with "Half" the amps! Can you imagine Ford, Chevy and Dodge trucks all fighting to be the one Pros want to buy and use, and all similar in power, fuel economy and warrantee but the Chevy has a six gallon gas tank while the others have a fifteen gallon tank? Even if you like the Chevy more, that small gas tank is gonna bother you. I want that big tank, give me equal or greater range than the competition.

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        • #34
          Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

          Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
          I use my tools every day for work and have been grandfathered into continuing with DeWalt 14.4. I can't imagine needing much more than the power I get from my XRP batteries, but do look forward to the Nano batteries becoming available in this voltage.

          My point? ...
          I enjoy them. This makes the extra $ worthwhile, because like an automotive enthusiast, or a wine connoisseur, I understand the difference that quality makes in use. And I appreciate it. AND I am willing to pay for it because it makes me happy while I work.

          So what will make you happiest, Tom? ............

          I also think you'd be better off getting a true drill and driver set and staying away from the pocket driver as a drill. No chuck as stated before.

          For me it would be between the DeWalt 14.4 which has served me incredibly well, and the new ryobi LI set which gives you three more tools for the same price, drill, light, circ saw, impact and your choice of bare tool for $279 I think?

          Neither one on your list. Sorry for that!
          ------------------------------------------------------

          Most of my lifetime 'key' purchase choices have been based on the type of factors you incoporate in your decisions. They were also made when growth and opportunity were before me versus now in active, but older early retirement years. I would never have labored over these decisions in times past ..... OTH .... my lifetime 'high tecky' side leans toward a newer, L-I batt solution, even though the XRP's are clearly capable for my needs.

          Your post triggers some meaningful issues and I know I will not be 'AS' happy with anything less than a quality solution that brings pride as well as functionality. Deep inside, I guess I would rather struggle with a bit more weight and size than try to find similar enjoyment in the lightweight attributes of something like the 'pocket' driver ...... even though it will likely function very well.

          I would be inconsistent .... after reading the comments here ..... if I did not at least take time to review the Ryobi +One products .... which I will do. I will also check on the nano L-I time frame.

          This specific process has been overworked, for sure, but I know I will be more content with the result.

          Tom B

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          • #35
            Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

            Originally posted by doubtingtom View Post
            Sound thoughts, but that opens the earlier Milwaukee V18 Kit ($299. less 10% local discount = $269.) issue. That's a heck of a Hammer Drill and the Milwaukee Impact Driver tossed in free (plus two L-I batts and charger of course). I am not being argumentative ... just do not have experience with the Makita Hammer Drill to make a comparison.

            How do you regard the Milwaukee compared to the Makita?

            Tom B
            I like the milwaukee v18 much more than the ridgid 24v. The 24v tools are much too heavy and bulky, up to the point where i would rather drag a cord around. I think given the options I would lean towards the milwaukee kit. However, I think makita makes the better impact driver. The milwaukee and ridgid impact drivers are too big and bulky

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            • #36
              Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

              Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
              ...
              I enjoy them. This makes the extra $ worthwhile, because like an automotive enthusiast, or a wine connoisseur, I understand the difference that quality makes in use. And I appreciate it. AND I am willing to pay for it because it makes me happy while I work.
              ...
              This is your sticking point, my friend. Are you like my buddy, a damned good carpenter and powerhouse producer who loves to beat his ryobi drill to it's last breath, toss it and get another one, gleefully passing up the chumps who pay 2-3 times what he does and still can't touch him on productivity?

              Or are you like me, enjoying the fact that, unlike him, I know that the impact driver I'm holding is not a "hammer drill" and quietly appreciating how much better it feels, and my wrist feels, while using it, not dropping it on the floor, and taking the process of each job as part of the reward?
              Originally posted by doubtingtom View Post
              ...I know I will not be 'AS' happy with anything less than a quality solution that brings pride as well as functionality.

              This specific process has been overworked, for sure, but I know I will be more content with the result.

              Tom B
              I think you have a bit of the pride effect that effecting how "durable" a more expensive tool is. When you pay more, and have more pride, you tend to take better care of your tools. This is a bit like comparing a house owner to an apartment renter....or a car buyer to a leaser.

              While I might never tax a tool such that I would benefit from it's superior workmanship, I do appreciate it.

              Having said that, I agree with someone who posted on the Ryobi forum. He said "Buying a Ryobi is like getting 80% as much tool for 40% as much money." You definitely give something up compared to a DeWalt or a Ridgid. The question is, do you need it and do you care? Similarly, oen might arguably say buying a Ridgid is often like getting 95% as much tool for 80% of the money compared to DeWalt.

              With Ridgid you give up weight, spectrum of available tools and accessories, and service and serviceability in general (replaceable brushes for example.)

              I look at tools as having a bunch of tiers of quality....with diminishing returns as you go up.

              First tier (low quality knockoffs): Cheap chinese ripoffs sold by Harbor Freight and similar places. These are drills you can buy for $30 bucks and usually aren't going to last even the casual user very long. Brushes and wiring fail. Batteries often don't last a year.

              Second tier (trademark tools): Branded chinese tools that passed some level of quality control. They have brand names like Coleman and Kawasacki and are sold in Kmart and Costco.

              Third tier (homeowner/weekend warrior): Homeowner brands like Black and Decker and Ryobi. These are mix of decent tools and ones and some that border on flimsy. They have smaller batteries...sometimes non-replaceable, and often come with trickle chargers. Black and Decker is a little more fly-by-night, making some real cr_p and some stuff that competes well with Ryobi. Black and Decker also takes some risks and comes out with some real innovative designs.

              These tools aren't really designed to be used hours upon hours day after day. Lately, I've seen DeWalt and a couple other companies selling these tools as low end entry models.

              Fourth tier (work/business tools): The workmans tools. DeWalts, Ridgid, Milwaukee, Makita, Hitachi, Panasonic...etc. These are the tools designed to be used on the job sites, day after day. They have better and more bushings and bearings. They are often serviceable. They have higher power batteries and metal transmissions and 1 hour chargers.

              Fifth tier (specialty/high end): This is the high end stuff. The brands that command very high prices because of their unique niche and name. Freud comes to mind. Snap-on is another one. These are the tools for people who demand a tool that will perform exactly how it claims and will back up the claims with a solid warranty.

              My philosophy is to buy the best value for what I do. If I'm only going to be using a tool occasionally, a homeowner model will probably suffice. If I'm going to really work a tool at times, and I don't want to have to replace it every few years...or I want the little extra performance, I'll buy the workman's model.

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              • #37
                Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

                Disaster, that was some post! Your education and real life experience are obvious to me and I totally agree with your complete coverage of this issue. When I did work as a fleet mechanic years ago I went through the different phases of buying such things as impact sockets and pry bars from different manufacturers. There was junk that didn't last very long, and better quality like Craftsman and then there was Snap On! When you get to the very top there is a difference, but as you said buy to fit your needs. I know I sometimes buy beyond my needs, but I just hate to buy the same thing two or three times when I could have spent the extra money in the first place. None of my Snap On tools have ever failed, and while many manufacturers offer life time warrantees if you buy the best or better quality you may avoid having to exercise this option. Thanks for that great post.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  ...real life experience are obvious to me.....I know I sometimes buy beyond my needs, but I just hate to buy the same thing two or three times when I could have spent the extra money in the first place..............None of my Snap On tools have ever failed, and while many manufacturers offer life time warrantees if you buy the best or better quality you may avoid having to exercise this option.
                  School of hard knocks, I'm sorry to say.

                  Here are a couple classes I took.

                  Bought a cheap Harbor Freight Pancake compressor. It was LOUD!!! and spit out oil but did work...kind of. The next season, when I went to use it again it would barely spin. A motor brush failed. Couldn't get a replacement. Took it to a local motor repair shop. The guy showed me the next 5 things that were going to fail. Carried it to the curb with the trash and bought a Hitachi for twice the price. Runs quiet, doesn't spit oil and has continued to run, like the day I bought it...for 10 years now.

                  Bought a cheap cordless Black and Decker drill for maybe $50. Had a little plug to charge the internal battery. Always seemed to be dead when I needed it. Trickle charger took 14 hours. Graduated to Ryobi for $125. Clutch failed in a couple years. Bought a second one for $75. It's clutch failed in another year. Bought a Bosch for $175. It was still working (except for one battery that finally gave up the ghost) 10 years later when I sold it on Ebay. Like you said, for the money I spent on the three earlier drills I could have almost bought the Bosch and been done with that nonsense.

                  Then there was the one that actually worked in my favor. Was looking for an inexpensive car. Had about $10K to spend. Was ready to buy a Ford Escort when I saw a used Mercedes 190 Diesel for around the same price. Sure it was slow as a dog but it was a Mercedes with heated leather seats and I drove that car for the next 6 years putting another 100,000 miles on it (had close to 70K when I bought it.) I only ever replaced the wheel bearings and the key assembly and a fuel tank (but that was because I had gotten bad fuel, with water in it and it rusted the tank.) Still worth $3000 when I got rid of it.

                  Funny story about Snap-on. I was busting a mechanic at work who would only buy Snap-on about how much cheaper my Craftsman wrenches were than his and they came with a lifetime guarantee too. He said, "Will the guarantee get the stuck nut off for you? If they made them out of Balsa wood, and they didn't work at all what good is the guarantee?" He had a good point which I learned the hard way a few years later while doing a brake job. Snapped 6 Craftsman sockets trying to remove a frozen nut.
                  Last edited by Disaster; 10-16-2007, 12:12 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Re: One 'hard-to-classify' player ...... for me ....

                    No argument with these comments but for me the single product in my short list which is very hard to 'place' in these groupings is the Makita 'Black & White' Kit (Drill/Driver & Impactor). I feel the quality is probably a great fit for my needs. I like the weight and size of both tools. I trust Makita to have done their homework and provided appropriate quality at this price point.

                    My problem has been that I cannot comfortably consider buying either product 'standalone' ...... due their very seductive 'kit' pricing. I am just too close to the kit price, with either tool choice, to justify not purchasing the kit instead. Once that choice is made, I am faced with the 'quality' tool options available very near that >$270. price class. This precisely why the Milwaukee V18 Kit suddenly became a distraction. This is my 'mind' problem and I accept that I need to 'grow up' and make the best choice I can. I really do not need both of these tools at this time given my existing corded DeWalt drill ... it actually performed quite well for me in the past few weeks driving a couple thousand 3" deck screws. This current decision would be far easier if the project was before me, not just past.

                    I am now doing tedious trim work with thinner composite boards and the ability to both pre-drill, and drive, screws is a great benefit. Clearly I can do this with almost any tool out there. Then, my concern has been what will be most versatile for years of unknown projects ahead?

                    Makita B&W looks very attractive. I screwed up my Ridgid 24v Kit purchase and have to let go. Milwaukee 8024-24P kit is very hard to ignore at the current price point. DeWalt is very comfortable, but I really want L-I batts.

                    Doesn't sound like I've made much progress. It would be far easier if I made my living with these tools ..... this decision would have been made in the first store visit!

                    Tom B

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                    • #40
                      Re: One 'hard-to-classify' player ...... for me ....

                      Originally posted by doubtingtom View Post
                      I am now doing tedious trim work with thinner composite boards and the ability to both pre-drill, and drive, screws is a great benefit. Clearly I can do this with almost any tool out there. Then, my concern has been what will be most versatile for years of unknown projects ahead?
                      That is the kind of job that really makes a drill and impact driver pair strut their stuff....especially a lightweight pair so you can carry both with you. I love my Panasonics for these kind of jobs. I either have both of them hanging off my belt or sitting at the top of the ladder. I quickly swap back and forth...from drilling to driving.

                      That is also one of the HUGE advantages I forgot to mention about the Panasonic over other brand drivers. Most drivers have wayyyyy too much torque than they need. This can be a real problem controlling smaller screws so you don't shear off the heads or bury them too deep. The Panasonic has three "power" levels and very nice control. The lightest setting is perfect for trim work. The heaviest will crank in lag bolts with ease.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

                        Just checked with Coastal Tool and Panasonic would be an outstanding choice .... BUT ... the same 'kit' dilemma. $299. for the L-I Impacr Driver and $349. for the 3 pc Kit. No way I could not take the Drill/Driver and Light for +$50. !!
                        This just up'd the ante by $100. but really puts everything in a different perspective for the longer haul.

                        Tom B

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                        • #42
                          Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

                          Originally posted by doubtingtom View Post
                          Just checked with Coastal Tool and Panasonic would be an outstanding choice .... BUT ... the same 'kit' dilemma. $299. for the L-I Impacr Driver and $349. for the 3 pc Kit. No way I could not take the Drill/Driver and Light for +$50. !!
                          This just up'd the ante by $100. but really puts everything in a different perspective for the longer haul.

                          Tom B
                          The Panasonic is expensive. Don't know that I would have bought it if the Makita 18 volt kit would have been available for almost $100 less. It certainly isn't a very good deal alone...the kit is what makes the deal...especially having two tools running off the same batteries.

                          Comes with two hard cases. I like hard cases but wish they would have seen fit to package both tools in one case.

                          Is the variable torque of the impact worth it? Not sure but I can remember way too many heads sheared off screws before I got it and only one after...and that was a brass one that popped off before the screw bottomed.

                          They didn't include the light when I bought mine...plus I paid more....something like $365 with a 5% off coupon from Toolup. :-(

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                          • #43
                            Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

                            P.S. Panasonic has some loyal followers. They love their Panasonic drills. Check out the reviews at Amazon.

                            http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...ustomerReviews

                            Some more Lithium tool reviews from "Tools of the Trade."

                            http://www.bigbuilderonline.com/cont...LithiumIon.pdf

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                            • #44
                              Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

                              Hello, I currently own a selection of tools and have some of the same likes and dislikes as you might have. I am just an average home owner, very rarley do I get to break out my vast selction of power tools and accomplish a task. But when I do get to I wanted something that had great power, durabilty but was light weight.

                              I own the ridgid 18v nicad hammer drill, recip saw, circul. saw, and flash light combo. The set works greats but the weight of the drill and become a little to much especially when trying to do smaller more criticle projects. So I also purchased a 12 volt ridge drill because the 12v battery work in the same charger as my 18v battery. I was happy with that combination until I won a Bosch ps-40 impactor.

                              The bosch is really a great tool when it comes to small quick projects and it has a pro feel to it. It however doesn't even come close to the speed or power that my 18v has.

                              After owning all of these tools I plan on keeping my 18v for the big jobs and the Bosch Impactor for the smaller ones. My intentions are to sell my 12 v ridgid. Hopefully this experience will help you decision.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Heavy Duty vs Compact Drills & Drivers __Really struggling

                                FireFighter, I have the Ridgid 18 volt set and I also think the tools are great when I need them. Problem is I don't use them often enough to keep the batteries charged without making a special effort to get them in the charger once in a while. That's why I was disappointed when Ridgid came out with the 24 volt lithium that fits the max select tools but not my 18 volt nicad tools. I'm still hoping Ridgid will sell a higher amp hour 18 volt lithium that will fit my tools. I won't have the same problem with the batteries draining between uses and still have the fine power and run time.

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