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DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

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  • #16
    Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

    Originally posted by Sceeter W Wheels View Post
    In a way that's the whole point of saying 2000 recharges. Someone's going to throw their battery out when they perceive it as no longer useful. I guess DeWalt figure that's at 50, 60% or whatever they found out is the typical point where someone gets fed up with their battery.
    Good jumping off point. Being the geek that I am, I used the graph data to calculate how long it would take the batteries to reach half strength. Of course this is based on this guys usage, for RC's, which is probably more abusive than typical tool usage. In RC's the batteries are run nearly flat out till they poop out. He also ran them down quite low.

    Using his data there is .00088Ah lost per cycle. Given his 2.2Ah starting point (again effected by usage) the batteries would hit 1.1Ah in 1,250 cycles. At his usage level they would only have less than .5Ah after 2000 cycles. Again, this is based on his data and assuming the wear out curve remains flat throughout the lifetime of the batteries.

    The average tool cycle will vary from tool to tool but usually be less aggressive than an RC user who often runs his batteries flat out the whole time. Therefore DeWalt's numbers look very plausible.

    I wonder if their numbers for the "other" manufacturers are as accurate. If so, DeWalt truly has a huge advantage.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

      Jumping off what point? Why doesn't DeWalt "helpfully" publish the exact capacity after 2000 cycles? For one, because it would be impossible to say exactly what the exact capacity would be at that point (tool use, right?). All they want to do is targeting the question "are the batteries still reasonably usable after 2000 cycles?" in as simple a way as possible. Does the average Joe care whether it's going to be 52.252525% or 57.252525%? Not really. All they want to know is if the batteries are going to do or close to do what the advertising said it would.

      Originally posted by Disaster View Post
      Good jumping off point. Being the geek that I am, I used the graph data to calculate how long it would take the batteries to reach half strength. Of course this is based on this guys usage, for RC's, which is probably more abusive than typical tool usage. In RC's the batteries are run nearly flat out till they poop out. He also ran them down quite low.

      Using his data there is .00088Ah lost per cycle. Given his 2.2Ah starting point (again effected by usage) the batteries would hit 1.1Ah in 1,250 cycles. At his usage level they would only have less than .5Ah after 2000 cycles. Again, this is based on his data and assuming the wear out curve remains flat throughout the lifetime of the batteries.

      The average tool cycle will vary from tool to tool but usually be less aggressive than an RC user who often runs his batteries flat out the whole time. Therefore DeWalt's numbers look very plausible.

      I wonder if their numbers for the "other" manufacturers are as accurate. If so, DeWalt truly has a huge advantage.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

        This doesn't say much for Ridgid's 18 volt compact lithium starting off at 1.5Amps. Now if they started at 3.0 at least they'd have a ways to go.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

          I find it odd and somewhat misleading that Dewalt "claims" their Nicd batteries last longer than the competitions Lithium Ion. Dewalt XRP is notorious for failure and short life. I hope people don't really buy into their marketing. A 2.4 Ah battery comes up short compared to the 3.0Ah batteries many of it's competitors already offer.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

            But who's marketing is really honest? They all focus on the things that make them look good and tend to omit the things that don't.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

              Originally posted by workerbob View Post
              I find it odd and somewhat misleading that Dewalt "claims" their Nicd batteries last longer than the competitions Lithium Ion. Dewalt XRP is notorious for failure and short life. I hope people don't really buy into their marketing. A 2.4 Ah battery comes up short compared to the 3.0Ah batteries many of it's competitors already offer.
              If any of the claims made by DeWalt or anyone else can be proven to be untrue it's false advertising and a serious problem for them. I know of a few class actions off the top of my head where tool companies had to reimburse customers because they made false claims on things such as horse power. If you can find anything that is patently untrue in DeWalts claims be sure to let me know when the payday starts...otherwise it's pretty irrelevant what is "notorious" to you and your buddies.

              I have never had a problem with my DW batteries, first generation, xr OR xrp. Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe a bad experience makes folks squawk louder than a customer who feels he got what he paid for.

              I'm not a DeWalt fanboy, I have had bad experiences and good with them, PC, Bosch, Makita...only good so far with ridgid, senco, jet, skil and only bad with Milwaukee. Everybody on here or involved in a trade would have a different list. I still wouldn't talk smack about anything without it being directly related to my experience and qualified as such.

              Buy your tools based on experience, personal preference, reviews, price or even color for all I care, but why try to muddy a conversation with (questionable) folk lore and no relayed personal experience or data to back it up? Seems counter productive and a little more whiny the more repetitive it gets.
              A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

                Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
                If any of the claims made by DeWalt or anyone else can be proven to be untrue it's false advertising and a serious problem for them. I know of a few class actions off the top of my head where tool companies had to reimburse customers because they made false claims on things such as horse power. If you can find anything that is patently untrue in DeWalts claims be sure to let me know when the payday starts...otherwise it's pretty irrelevant what is "notorious" to you and your buddies.
                Perhaps that is why DeWalt, in their advertising doesn't spell out Makita or Milwaukee...just shows a picture with their trademark colors. You see the same thing with Ridgid's XLi lineup. They show pictures of their runtime vs. to other colors that look suspiciously like Makitas and DeWalts.

                http://www.ridgid.com/xli/

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

                  Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
                  If any of the claims made by DeWalt or anyone else can be proven to be untrue it's false advertising and a serious problem for them. I know of a few class actions off the top of my head where tool companies had to reimburse customers because they made false claims on things such as horse power. If you can find anything that is patently untrue in DeWalts claims be sure to let me know when the payday starts...otherwise it's pretty irrelevant what is "notorious" to you and your buddies.

                  I have never had a problem with my DW batteries, first generation, xr OR xrp. Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe a bad experience makes folks squawk louder than a customer who feels he got what he paid for.

                  I'm not a DeWalt fanboy, I have had bad experiences and good with them, PC, Bosch, Makita...only good so far with ridgid, senco, jet, skil and only bad with Milwaukee. Everybody on here or involved in a trade would have a different list. I still wouldn't talk smack about anything without it being directly related to my experience and qualified as such.

                  Buy your tools based on experience, personal preference, reviews, price or even color for all I care, but why try to muddy a conversation with (questionable) folk lore and no relayed personal experience or data to back it up? Seems counter productive and a little more whiny the more repetitive it gets.
                  It is all marketing and all companies do it. I just don't buy it from any of them and I'm hoping others don't as well. I have seen good and bad from them all.

                  I really look forward to the new Dewalt Lithium it will be nice to have options to work with the old tools. I just hope they work well like they are being advertised. The price for the upgraded battery is high at release but I'm sure they will come down after the new wears off.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

                    Milwaukee 18V lithium ion upgrades are only $179 for 2 V18 batteries and reverse compatible charger.

                    http://www.ohiopowertool.com/item-de...?ID=48-11-1833
                    Jay
                    Ohio Power Tool - Ridgid
                    Coptool - Power Tool Blog

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

                      Originally posted by Jay6 View Post
                      Milwaukee 18V lithium ion upgrades are only $179 for 2 V18 batteries and reverse compatible charger.

                      http://www.ohiopowertool.com/item-de...?ID=48-11-1833
                      If Ridgid came out with a set like that I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I'd be much less inclined to buy a set that only comes with one battery. I'm definitely not going to spend $150 or more for a charger and single battery and another $100 for a second battery.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

                        You guys have some good points but I think you should look at this from my point of view:

                        My 18V Dewalt set consists of:
                        1. Hammer Drill / Driver
                        2. Reciprocating Saw with 4 position blade chuck & depth adjustable shoe which is removable
                        3. Impact Driver
                        4. Impact Wrench
                        5. Angle Grinder
                        6. Angle Drill
                        7. Drywall Cut Out Tool
                        8. Circular Saw
                        9. Flood Light
                        10. Fluorescent Light
                        11. Vacuum
                        12. Caulking Gun
                        13. Finish Nailer
                        14. Rotary Laser Level (self leveling)
                        15. Jigsaw
                        16. 12 Batteries
                        Wouldn't you say that Dewalt has the biggest variety of cordless tools out there? Of Good quality I might add.

                        Now think about it, If I were to buy 3 Nano Batteries and a charger for $480. I would own the best Lithium Ion cordless tool set on this planet.

                        The point is, I already have all the tools. It just wouldn't make sense to go and buy a whole new Brand X lithium ion drill kit just for the sake of spending less than $180.

                        The recip saw is a strong Mother too, I cut through numerous 1 1/2" and 2" galvanized pipes for repairs. Cutting thru a 4x12 isn't a problem on 1 battery.
                        This is my main tool during waterline re-routes under houses for removing galvanized piping. Those days of dragging a cord is over.
                        I leave my corded Porter Cable sawzall at home along with my Skilsaw.

                        Dewalt isn't crazy, they are smart by letting guys like me save money. Can you imagine how much money I would spend to completely replace all of my tools with lithium ion kits? Even if it were Brand X, which some of the tools they don't even make, especially the rotary laser level at $1100.

                        That's just my take on it.

                        Aloha,

                        Tracy
                        Last edited by yasudaplumbing; 10-26-2007, 01:39 AM. Reason: .
                        .

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

                          Originally posted by yasudaplumbing View Post
                          Now think about it, If I were to buy 3 Nano Batteries and a charger for $480. I would own the best Lithium Ion cordless tool set on this planet.
                          There are a lot of people out there in your shoes so DeWalt is likely to make a killing on these upgrade packs.

                          However that still doesn't make them the best value.

                          When they start offering kits with the batteries, they will be hard pressed to charge considerably more than they do now for the NiCad kits because Lithium Ion kit pricing is falling.

                          Therefore, as long as they can keep selling tools, it is to their advantage, financially, to only sell the Lithium batteries in upgrade kits....That is...as long as they are still selling tools.

                          If people start choosing to buy competitive 18v tools, because DeWalt doesn't have kits available with Lithium Ion, they will be forced to bring them to the market.

                          Then you will have the situation where it is much more economical to buy a kit vs. the battery upgrade kit. You could buy the kit and sell the tools that come with it and be way ahead on the deal.

                          Look at Ryobi, for example. I could have bought an upgrade kit with one battery for $110 or a drill with two batteries, and flashlight for $159. I bought the kit. I'll sell the drill and flashlight for $30-$40 bucks and end up with an extra battery for the same price as the upgrade kit.
                          Last edited by Disaster; 10-25-2007, 08:51 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

                            Originally posted by yasudaplumbing View Post
                            You guys have some good points but I think you should look at this from my point of view:

                            My 18V Dewalt set consists of:
                            1. Hammer Drill / Driver
                            2. Reciprocating Saw with 4 position blade chuck & depth adjustable shoe which is removable
                            3. Impact Driver
                            4. Impact Wrench
                            5. Angle Grinder
                            6. Angle Drill
                            7. Drywall Cut Out Tool
                            8. Circular Saw
                            9. Flood Light
                            10. Fluorescent Light
                            11. Vacuum
                            12. Caulking Gun
                            13. Finish Nailer
                            14. Rotary Laser Level (self leveling)
                            15. Jigsaw
                            16. 12 Batteries
                            Wouldn't you say that Dewalt has the biggest variety of cordless tools out there? Good quality I might add.

                            Now think about it, If I were to buy 3 Nano Batteries and a charger for $480. I would own the best Lithium Ion cordless tool set on this planet.

                            The point is, I already have all the tools. It just wouldn't make sense to go and buy a whole new Brand X lithium ion drill kit just for the sake of spending less than $180.

                            The recip saw is a strong Mother too, I cut through numerous 1 1/2" and 2" galvanized pipes for repairs. Cutting thru a 4x12 isn't a problem on 1 battery.
                            This is my main tool during waterline re-routes under houses for removing galvanized piping. Those days of dragging a cord is over.
                            I leave my corded Porter Cable sawzall at home along with my Skilsaw.

                            Dewalt isn't crazy, they are smart by letting guys like me save money. Can you imagine how much money I would spend to completely replace all of my tools with lithium ion kits? Even if it were Brand X, which some of the tools they don't even make.

                            That's just my take on it.

                            Aloha,

                            Tracy
                            I know Ryobi and Makita both have just as many or more tools that run off of the same type of battery. So there are other options as far as one company using one battery for all of their cordless. But, like you said you already have tools.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

                              Ryobi has by FAR the most extensive cordless lineup but if you want something that can handle real world heavy duty use they are not quite the way to go. Makita is quickly catching up but they are still lacking a few tools Dewalt has in their 18v lineup like the big impact wrench, screw guns, worklights, right angle drill and a couple of others. Also, a few of their tools have not made it outside japan and europe. I noticed in their japan site they now have a right angle impact driver like the Ridgid one. Makita claims to have more tools right now but they count their kits as tools which means a lot of repeats.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

                                From a pure robustness standpoint, the A123 technology, in the DeWalt Nano cells is king. It is the only Lithium Ion technology I know of that is completely thermal runaway proof...ie. it will not go into a state where the heat keeps building and driving a faster hotter reaction until a fire occurs.

                                However it also one of the least power to weight efficient and because it is offered by only one company, is one of the most expensive.

                                One could argue this is DeWalt being it's typically conservative self.

                                It is good to know you could drop a drill off a building and not have to worry about it setting your truck on fire as it breaks down.

                                I'm interested to see how the pricing works out in the long run.

                                ie. Regarding Ryobi, they are a different class of tools. They are a good value but not as robust. They aren't targeted toward the tradesman that will use them day after day.

                                Regarding Makita, they have some pretty cool tools...especially their newer lighter weight line, but they also aren't quite as rugged and they definitely don't have as diverse a lineup.

                                Comment

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