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Is it time to just accept the hype?

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  • Is it time to just accept the hype?

    Mercedes is coming out with a hybrid using A123 batteries!? Is it time to start listening to the yellow guys yet? If Mercedes is using it then the quality must be there!

    when will TTI just recognize the fact that they have the wrong kool-aid in the Lithium department? Great Nicd but Lion is not there with TTI

  • #2
    Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

    Originally posted by donutboy View Post
    Mercedes is coming out with a hybrid using A123 batteries!? Is it time to start listening to the yellow guys yet? If Mercedes is using it then the quality must be there!

    when will TTI just recognize the fact that they have the wrong kool-aid in the Lithium department? Great Nicd but Lion is not there with TTI
    Don't know why you posted this, but recent tests by the magazines showed that Ryobi beat them all in number of holes drilled and bolts driven on a single charge of the Lion drills.
    info for all: http://www.hoistman.com http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/index....wwtoolinfoforu --- "I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me."

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    • #3
      Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

      can you send a link to that? I have a couple of my guys that are looking at the Ryobi. IS is totally different than the Ridgid/Milwaukee formula?

      appreciate it

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      • #4
        Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

        Originally posted by donutboy View Post
        can you send a link to that? I have a couple of my guys that are looking at the Ryobi. IS is totally different than the Ridgid/Milwaukee formula?

        appreciate it
        whao, whao, whao, so milwaukee and ridgid has the same formula? i sure hope not

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        • #5
          Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

          ok, help me here...
          In saying "formula", are you guys referring to the chemistry of the batteries?

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          • #6
            Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

            Yeah formula , chemistry, kool-aid, whatever you want to call it. Milwaukee uses a manganese and I assume that Ridgid is the same. Milwaukee was purchased by tti right after they launched v28 and before ridgid had anything. so I feel that is safe to assume that ridgid launched with the manganese kool-aid. Dewalt is a nano phosphate kool-aid and they are the only ones allowed to use it in powertools until something like 3004.

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            • #7
              Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

              Originally posted by donutboy View Post
              Yeah formula , chemistry, kool-aid, whatever you want to call it. Milwaukee uses a manganese and I assume that Ridgid is the same. Milwaukee was purchased by tti right after they launched v28 and before ridgid had anything. so I feel that is safe to assume that ridgid launched with the manganese kool-aid. Dewalt is a nano phosphate kool-aid and they are the only ones allowed to use it in powertools until something like 3004.
              i sure hope the V28's are nothing like ridgid's 24v lithiums...with several people on here having problems with the 24v's, myself included, thats why i returned it for the v28, i sure hope i won't be having the same trouble i had with the 24v's...

              what does makita use? or craftsman? panasonic? hitachi? bosch? j/w if anyone knows...

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              • #8
                Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

                makita is made by sony so whatever they put in dell laptops is what they use.

                can we get a ridgid rep to say what is in the ridgid vs milwaukee?

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                • #9
                  Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

                  The review is in the latest issue of Popular Woodworking. I believe it was the Makita that won honors as best drill and Ridgid won for best value. I don't know who paid who how much, but the test results showed the Ryobi drilled and drove more than all the others by a large margin. Only down side to the Ryobi was a longer charge time. I don't have the mag myself but if anyone does they can get all the details.TTI does own Milwaukee and they do make Ridgid and Ryobi tools along with many of the other brands on the market.
                  info for all: http://www.hoistman.com http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/index....wwtoolinfoforu --- "I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me."

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                  • #10
                    Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

                    Originally posted by donutboy View Post
                    If Mercedes is using it then the quality must be there!
                    Yeah, well, GM is also pairing with A123 Technologies for their battery technology as well. Now, I'm not sure if you're a GM/Chev/GMC/Pontiac fan, but are you still sure that they (A123) are the end-all and be-all then?

                    Me personally, I'd want to know who Toyota will be using.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

                      I also agree ,the Ridgid 24V is a bust. I predict they will not even make that line again. There prices are way out of line as well compared to Makita for example.
                      here is a discussion on woodnet:

                      http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthr...=&fpart=2&vc=1

                      part of the discusssion:
                      Very impressive post Louie! One thing I would like to add to this that may not be clear is most of the Lithium tool batteries are using a Lithium Iron Phosphate (Not a regular LiIon). They have to do this because standard LiIon cylindrical cells do not have the ability to put out the higher amperages. Lithium Iron Phosphate cells can but do tend to have a shorter cycle life because of this trade-off. The A123 cells being used by a choice few of the manufacturers are good quality cells and have been proven out in the R/C industry already. Those guys beat the batteries harder than any construction worker regardless of how hard you use your tools. Another note is you CANNOT take a lithium Nano battery pack and charge it on a standard LiIon charger. Lithium nano and Lithium Iron have a nominal voltage of 3.2V per cell but the A123 site/specs rate it as 3.7V per cell which is its max charge voltage. A regular LiIon has a nominal voltage of 3.6V per cell with a max charge voltage of around 4.2V per cell. Charging a lithium nano to this high of a voltage may cause damage depending on when the PCB inside the battery pack cuts the voltage off.

                      Only one thing I would debate is the NiMH performance statement. I would certainly agree that typical NiMH batteries that the OEMS offer are no comparison to todays Lithium's; however, the NiMH we use have a higher output amperage rating, have a higher capacity, is equal in maintaining voltage under load, and will also accept more charge/discharge cycles than any Lithium Iron cells currently being used (Like Makitas 18V). I can only make this statement with certainty because of the testing we have done with the Makita 18V BL1830 Lithiums. Our NiMH rebuild services aren't much cheaper (if any) than some of the Lithiums so I guess that also makes a bit of a difference. In general I agree pretty much everything you said but there are a few exceptions.

                      Again, it's an absolute pleasure to see someone else offering good hard facts and you have obviously done your homework ! Thanks Louie.

                      Regards,
                      Jason Abel
                      Battery Builders / MTO Battery
                      www.mtobattery.com

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                      • #12
                        Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

                        All powertools using lithium ion are manganese based with the exception of dewalt who has exclusivity with A123. Those are the only currently commercially viable chemistries currently out there that will work on a powertool without a fireworks display. Makita uses Sony batteries which are a slightly modified blend of nickel manganese but thats about the only difference. Milwaukee uses, or used Molicel, maybe that's what Ridgid uses. Whatever the problem with Ridgid is it seems to have more to do with the battery electronics than the cells themselves.

                        As far as cars, only prototypes and some very high end cars will use lithium ion. There is just no way to make an economical electric/hybrid using lithium. The batteries quite simply cost many times more than the car. Toyota uses NiMH and they recently had a press release saying the have no intention of swithching well past 2010, i can't remember the year. They also claim they aren't going to consider changing until a better safety record can be achieved with them.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

                          I compared the weight of the 24V Ridgid and it seems lighter than the 18V LiIon Ryobi if that means anything. Again, Ryobi has 18V that seems to work, costs less too, $119 with a charger. makita's price is about $55, 3.2ah. Why do the Ridgid batteries,with no LSA if outside a kit [3yr as opposed to 5yr warranty ]and cost $99?

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                          • #14
                            Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

                            Well for one thing the Ridgid will have more cells so that will increase the cost. Makita also sells a lot more meaning there are a lot of batteries out there and competition to sell them.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Is it time to just accept the hype?

                              Originally posted by Velosapien View Post
                              Well for one thing the Ridgid will have more cells so that will increase the cost. Makita also sells a lot more meaning there are a lot of batteries out there and competition to sell them.
                              Why would the Ridgid 3aH have more cells than the Makita 3.2aH, both are 18v? Again , the Ridgid battery is $99 and the Makita is $55, no way that it is worth the difference especially when you are using heavy , several years old nicad design tools which are not optimized for the LiIon cells which act differently than the nicads.
                              I for one refuse to buy any of Ridgid's LiIon tools until their design changes for the better and the price comes in line with the competition. A tool that can operate on 24V and 18V is not going to be best using an 18V battery, that is not rocket science just basic physics,that is a bad idea especially when the 24V battery does not even work consistently and you can not even buy a starter kit anymore if you want to add that. I would like to talk to the the brand manager in charge for having such an inadequate plan. They then , to play catchup, put an 18V LiIon 3ah kit with an old 18v nicad hammer/drill,thinking that the comsumer will see it is $200 for just the batteries with no LSA , but use 18V/24V saws , which are the most power demanding tools, that are not 18V optimized and the kit costs more than the better Makita tools which have batteries if you want them.

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