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  • #16
    Re: Pretty Ballsy

    Dewalt has usually put out a boastfull spec sheet, but never really any internal information...so they must be pretty confident in this new line of XRP.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Pretty Ballsy

      Originally posted by Kanxrus View Post
      Dewalt.com is promoting there drill for sure!! But they did a decent job of it by showing internals, drop tests, and a simple drill test. Or were you talking about drc's link??
      Actually, I thought that both of the tests were good. I especially like the second one as it gave some numbers on what the other drills achieved on a test utilyzing a large diameter bit in a controlled test. I have the X2 and love it. I got the latest one of the X2 drills that I have from the Ultimate 8 piece Combo kit at @299 last year. They had an interesting comparison of holes per Ah, but I think another comparison would be HOLES PER DOLLAR. Don't know how much that new DC950 is gonna cost but I do now my X2 was a lot less and based on the hole/$ theory is the best drill out there. All kidding aside though, why doesn't DeWalt make a 3.0 Ah lithium?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Pretty Ballsy

        Originally posted by Spinalzo View Post
        They had an interesting comparison of holes per Ah, but I think another comparison would be HOLES PER DOLLAR. Don't know how much that new DC950 is gonna cost but I do now my X2 was a lot less and based on the hole/$ theory is the best drill out there. All kidding aside though, why doesn't DeWalt make a 3.0 Ah lithium?
        LOL... only time would tell on holes per dollar! $299 is a super deal for an 8 kit. The DCD950 looks like it will be replacing the older DC925. Grizzlytools.com has the DCD950 for the same price as the DC925 for $299.

        As far as the 3.0Ah battery... I think it has to do with the cells. A123's 18560 cells have a nominal voltage of 3.3 volts, and a nominal capaicty of 1.1 Ah. I believe most others have a higher nominal value per cell? I am not a engineer, but if I had a make a guess.... that would be it.

        I believe if you do the math... the Dewalt Nano Phosphate 18v battery is actually a 2.2Ah battery during it's normal running. And a 2.4 Ah at a full charge? Again I am only assuming?? Someone feel free to correct me.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Pretty Ballsy

          I wouldn't call these videos ballsy, unless they were blatantly lying. But they're not. In general, DeWalt's cordless have always been strong in the power department, and have good durability. So they have earned the right to be boastful if they want. What they're showing isn't really anything new either, but this is the first time I've seen them actually talk this much directly about their internal design features. Molded-in magnets date back to early XRP drills. If you made this video with the DC988 or DC925, they would also do really well.

          Now, they have taken some liberties. I applaud them for making a transmission with a metal housing. *BUT* the previous XRP drills have used nylon transmission housings. Notice how they don't mention this. Anyway, I'm glad they have improved on this.

          The 300RPM low gear problem of Makita, that's something we've talked about quite a bit. Velosapien has commented on this quite a few times. Keep in mind that that they have since released the BHP454, which now has a 400RPM low gear. That should improve the speed quite a bit.

          But to be fair to Makita, we need to actually thank them. The LXT drills are still very good. Everybody is doing "frameless motors" now and lithium ion. Makita have actually been doing this kind of motor design for quite some time, long before LXT. This is exactly what you want in this industry: competition. When one company raises the bar, it makes everyone else do the same. So we all end up with better products.

          What is interesting is that there's no Bosch drill in the video. Isn't that interesting?

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Pretty Ballsy

            Originally posted by Spinalzo View Post
            Actually, I thought that both of the tests were good. I especially like the second one as it gave some numbers on what the other drills achieved on a test utilyzing a large diameter bit in a controlled test. I have the X2 and love it. I got the latest one of the X2 drills that I have from the Ultimate 8 piece Combo kit at @299 last year. They had an interesting comparison of holes per Ah, but I think another comparison would be HOLES PER DOLLAR. Don't know how much that new DC950 is gonna cost but I do now my X2 was a lot less and based on the hole/$ theory is the best drill out there. All kidding aside though, why doesn't DeWalt make a 3.0 Ah lithium?
            Because the higher the capacity the less current and cycles cell can provide, this is a physical limitation. Also dewalt uses completely different chemistry from *everybody* on the market. And Ah rating is not the most important, there are a ton of other factors that play a big role (as the test proved). There is nothing magic about number 3. Milwaukee and Ridgid blatantly lie about the capacity, it's 2.8-2.9, with 2.9 being the highest theoretical maximum, which you can only gain if you slow-charge the battery for 10 hours. Also, Dewalt cells cost DOUBLE ($9 for LiFePo4 cell compared to $4 for Mn cell) to produce compared what others use. Price here for a ridgid li-ion is $99-$119 and Dewalt li-ion is $89-$120 (if you buy from a dealer). Basically Ridgid makes a killing on markup.

            Dewalt *kind of* lies about capacity stating it's (2.2 Ah) the same as NiCd (which is 2.4), HOWEVER! Because NiCd discharge curve is more linear than Li-Ion, the overall current released at a given voltage (= power) is the same. Dewalt always avoided Ah ratings because other manufacturers made them meaningless marketing BS. This is why they refer to it as "runtime & performance" rather than "capacity".

            Bosch uses similar cells to Makita but they are smart, they use modified version that has less capacity (1.1/1.3 vs 1.5) and can provide higher current. Makita is 2nd last in li-ion battery crappiness, with V18/V28 milwaukee, Ryobi and Ridgid being the worst. I haven't opened the M18 stuff yet but I bet it's Sony cells like Makita. All li-ion you see is manganese oxide or manganese spinel which can only provide 1/3rd or 1/4th of the current dewalt can provide, this translates into tools not bogging down at higher RPM. The cycle life they claim is exaggerated, BUT if compared to overblown makita cycles, ratio stays the same. Real dewalt cycle life is about 1200-1500 and makita 600-800, ridgid is around 400-600.

            They basically scarificed the capacity for lifetime and performance.

            Also, the last link I posted is a forum that is maintained by a guy who DOES NOT work for dewalt.

            If you guys think somebody independent is going to rig a test just to promote a tool which can be easily verified and exposed if false, you need to see a doctor.

            Also, higher capacity cells age and wear out a lot faster.

            As for $/holes ratio, Dewalt has the highest torque so the $200-500 you save on a kit will turn out to be $2500 loss in productivity time and waiting for LSA claims to be processed over a course of a year. Following the same logic you can say it's cheaper to hire 2 illegal mexicans with Ryobi tools than 1 licensed professional with Dewalt gear. It's really not worth it.

            To be honest the whole "brand war" is pretty stupid because target markets are different. Absolutely nobody in their right mind will pick Ridgid cordless tools for heavy industrial construction over Blue/Yellow/Teal/Burgundy, just like no DIYer will buy a Hilti SDS MAX hammer to hang pictures. For the applications Dewalt is made, it is the best, period. For tradesmen, casual users and DIY, Ridgid is best bang for the buck, period. You know, if you are a plumber and you need to drill five 2" holes a day in counters, plywood and drywall, you don't need $400 dewalt. But if you are an electrician wiring a huge condo building on a tight schedule and need to drill a thousand studs, Dewalt is the right tool. Yeah, you can probably get away with Ridgid, but it's just not productive.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Pretty Ballsy

              DRC-Wartex, nice site with really good reviews. BUT I'm a fan of Hitachi and I'd like to see some reviews of their power tools. I'm not a contractor that uses tools daily, but do appreciate a good power tool when I need it. A few years ago I was in the market for a good cordless drill and chose the Hitachi DV18DL over the DeWalt, Milwaukee, Makita and Bosch offerings in the same power/size range and would buy another one if I needed it. The Hitachi has outstanding power, great features and the most comfortable drill I've used for long term. Later!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Pretty Ballsy

                Maybe part of their campaign was/is to counter this recall from Dec. 2007



                DeWALT Recalls Cordless Drills due to Fire Hazard

                December 20, 2007

                http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08143.html

                Hazard: The trigger switch of the cordless drill can overheat,
                posing a fire hazard to consumers.

                Incidents/Injuries: DEWALT has received 11 reports of trigger switches
                overheating. No injuries or property damage have been reported.
                "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Pretty Ballsy

                  Originally posted by DRC-Wartex View Post
                  Also, the last link I posted is a forum that is maintained by a guy who DOES NOT work for dewalt.

                  If you guys think somebody independent is going to rig a test just to promote a tool which can be easily verified and exposed if false, you need to see a doctor.
                  Hmmmmm, haven't we heard this from you before? And by independent you don't mean unbiased seeing as the forum is called www.dewaltownersgroup.com. Or maybe they're just a bunch of guys that sit aroung pounding gears then join other forums to rip on other brands too

                  Originally posted by DRC-Wartex View Post
                  As for $/holes ratio, Dewalt has the highest torque so the $200-500 you save on a kit will turn out to be $2500 loss in productivity time and waiting for LSA claims to be processed over a course of a year. Following the same logic you can say it's cheaper to hire 2 illegal mexicans with Ryobi tools than 1 licensed professional with Dewalt gear. It's really not worth it.
                  Yeah exactly the same right?

                  Originally posted by DRC-Wartex View Post
                  To be honest the whole "brand war" is pretty stupid because target markets are different. Absolutely nobody in their right mind will pick Ridgid cordless tools for heavy industrial construction over Blue/Yellow/Teal/Burgundy, just like no DIYer will buy a Hilti SDS MAX hammer to hang pictures. For the applications Dewalt is made, it is the best, period. For tradesmen, casual users and DIY, Ridgid is best bang for the buck, period. You know, if you are a plumber and you need to drill five 2" holes a day in counters, plywood and drywall, you don't need $400 dewalt. But if you are an electrician wiring a huge condo building on a tight schedule and need to drill a thousand studs, Dewalt is the right tool. Yeah, you can probably get away with Ridgid, but it's just not productive.
                  Well I agree the brand war is stupid . . . i disagree however that I am not right minded. I use RIDGID power tools over Blue/Piss/Teal/Red and am proud to do so. I have several friends, one who happens to be an electrician even that has gone with RIDGID and has been happy ever since. DeWalt make good tools I don't deny that, why must you focus your hatered for Orange tools here. Maybe I'll join the DeWalt forum and, oh wait they don't have one.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Pretty Ballsy

                    Originally posted by Sceeter W Wheels View Post
                    I wouldn't call these videos ballsy, unless they were blatantly lying. But they're not. In general, DeWalt's cordless have always been strong in the power department, and have good durability. So they have earned the right to be boastful if they want. What they're showing isn't really anything new either, but this is the first time I've seen them actually talk this much directly about their internal design features. Molded-in magnets date back to early XRP drills. If you made this video with the DC988 or DC925, they would also do really well.

                    Now, they have taken some liberties. I applaud them for making a transmission with a metal housing. *BUT* the previous XRP drills have used nylon transmission housings. Notice how they don't mention this. Anyway, I'm glad they have improved on this.

                    The 300RPM low gear problem of Makita, that's something we've talked about quite a bit. Velosapien has commented on this quite a few times. Keep in mind that that they have since released the BHP454, which now has a 400RPM low gear. That should improve the speed quite a bit.

                    But to be fair to Makita, we need to actually thank them. The LXT drills are still very good. Everybody is doing "frameless motors" now and lithium ion. Makita have actually been doing this kind of motor design for quite some time, long before LXT. This is exactly what you want in this industry: competition. When one company raises the bar, it makes everyone else do the same. So we all end up with better products.

                    What is interesting is that there's no Bosch drill in the video. Isn't that interesting?
                    I agree that we, the consumer, be it from a DIYer point of view or a heavy user contractor, benefit from the competition and new ideas in technology. What is interesting is that there is no Bosch tool in the mix. What is also interesting is that Bosch and DeWalt both had "stick" batteries (upper portion) that extended up into the handle of the tool. On the Bosch lithium tools they have drifted away from that technology to a battery that slides into the handle vis-a-vis Makita, Ridgid, Milwaukee and the like. I'd say, from an engineering point of view, that you probably could not effectively utilize an ABS or fiberglass body with that "stick" portion of the battery extending up the handle. From their film clip you see the Makita eject its' battery and the body twisting, contorting, and tumbling about (and it does look bad) - but I'd venture to say it's by design. Have had my Ridgid tools do the same thing when they've taken a fall onto the rubber battery bumper, but I pick 'em up, snap the battery back and move on. Too, and I may be mistaken here also, Bosch has not made batteries that are backwards compatible for their older tools, but their newer lithium offerings utilize a different engineering technology. I applaud DeWalt for their engineering efforts and for their backwards compatible lithium offerings, but I see a lot of what they have done might be out of necessity based on the design that they have chosen. Some of those engineering ideas will no doubt fuel the concepts from other makers in the future.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Pretty Ballsy

                      Originally posted by Spinalzo View Post
                      From their film clip you see the Makita eject its' battery and the body twisting, contorting, and tumbling about (and it does look bad) - but I'd venture to say it's by design. Have had my Ridgid tools do the same thing when they've taken a fall onto the rubber battery bumper, but I pick 'em up, snap the battery back and move on. Too, and I may be mistaken here also, Bosch has not made batteries that are backwards compatible for their older tools, but their newer lithium offerings utilize a different engineering technology. I applaud DeWalt for their engineering efforts and for their backwards compatible lithium offerings, but I see a lot of what they have done might be out of necessity based on the design that they have chosen. Some of those engineering ideas will no doubt fuel the concepts from other makers in the future.
                      The drill in the video (where 2 drills are being dropped) is Milwaukee and not makita. The handle BREAKS at the base when it falls. Second drill is new Dewalt. Watch it again.

                      I'd say, from an engineering point of view, that you probably could not effectively utilize an ABS or fiberglass body with that "stick" portion of the battery extending up the handle
                      And why is that? XRP NiCd batteries bodies are made of ABS. Old Black and Decker cordless drills are also made of ABS and accept the pod style batteries. Makita uses ABS and they also use pod style batteries in older tools. There, big hole in your theories.

                      Dewalt's battery stub contained a NiCd cell and the new nano batteries have the charge controller circuit board there. They could have easily changed to slide style batteries but they didn't so that new batteries fit old tools. That indicates that this is the only company who cares about existing users while everybody else dumped the owners of old tools. Milwaukee and Ridgid did it TWICE (with V18 and 24v).

                      Any manufacturer could easily adapt old form factor to new cell size. I made my own LiIon packs for pod style makita tools and made adapters to use makita slide style bateries on dewalt tools before dewalt came up with li-ion batts. It's not that hard.

                      Ru&Lins_05, the forum dewaltownersgroup was created very recently and is maintained by Kanxrus. He wants to create a forum equivalent to this, but unofficial. This is a one guy operation and he doesn't work for Dewalt, I know him. If you actually take time and research it, you will see he did some very good tests. I did similar tests but with hole saws and can confirm Makita BHP451 is the weakest, followed by ridgid.

                      Dewalt also has user comments and questions for each tool on their website, nobody else does.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Pretty Ballsy

                        Originally posted by DRC-Wartex View Post
                        The drill in the video (where 2 drills are being dropped) is Milwaukee and not makita. The handle BREAKS at the base when it falls. Second drill is new Dewalt. Watch it again.



                        And why is that? XRP NiCd batteries bodies are made of ABS. Old Black and Decker cordless drills are also made of ABS and accept the pod style batteries. Makita uses ABS and they also use pod style batteries in older tools. There, big hole in your theories.

                        Dewalt's battery stub contained a NiCd cell and the new nano batteries have the charge controller circuit board there. They could have easily changed to slide style batteries but they didn't so that new batteries fit old tools. That indicates that this is the only company who cares about existing users while everybody else dumped the owners of old tools. Milwaukee and Ridgid did it TWICE (with V18 and 24v).

                        Any manufacturer could easily adapt old form factor to new cell size. I made my own LiIon packs for pod style makita tools and made adapters to use makita slide style bateries on dewalt tools before dewalt came up with li-ion batts. It's not that hard.

                        Ru&Lins_05, the forum dewaltownersgroup was created very recently and is maintained by Kanxrus. He wants to create a forum equivalent to this, but unofficial. This is a one guy operation and he doesn't work for Dewalt, I know him. If you actually take time and research it, you will see he did some very good tests. I did similar tests but with hole saws and can confirm Makita BHP451 is the weakest, followed by ridgid.

                        Dewalt also has user comments and questions for each tool on their website, nobody else does.
                        DRC,

                        I watched all three videos and the compact video featured the white and black compact Makita. Pretty much exactly what I am saying - designs allow manufacturers to do different things. Makitas design, and that of the Milwaukee, allowed them to use lighter, thinner materials as there is nothing of consequence in the handle. By making the drill lighter, more ergonomic (read smaller diameter) in the handle, and not using the more expensive Xenon material that DeWalt uses, their platforms are not as rigid when they fall and that is what we are seeing. DeWalt, in their video, is aptly trying to point this out to anyone that will listen - Makita, et al, in order to make lighter tools also must push tool thickness diameters to get there and that's what they've chosen to do. DeWalt can't go in that direction as much due to their "pod" design on the battery. Nothing wrong with either platform - it is what it is.

                        Additionally I stated that it was to DeWalt's credit that they continued with their platform and made their batteries backwards compatible for their older tools. Had I been DeWalt, I would have done it also rather than release my prior customers to the other tool manufacturers. So, before we start sticking feathers in hats, let's realize that it was one born out of expedience.

                        Regarding Ridgids' 24 volt decision, I in no way feel "dumped". I know that you don't agree, but I am bouyed by the Lifetime Service Agreement that I have on the tools and batteries. Though the platform may evolve or morph into something else, or becomes extinct, I am still covered. That decision regarding lifetime service is also born out of expedience from a tool line that has been around a little over 5 years trying to retain and entice customers while improving upon their service outlets. Please remember, DRC, that manufacturers don't live in a bubble of their own, but are motivated by money. Customers, and customer retention is what gets money.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Pretty Ballsy

                          Oh, by the way, you don't need a customer reply section behind your tools when you have a whole forum. Please don't put that to me as a virtue of the DeWalt company.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Pretty Ballsy

                            Originally posted by DRC-Wartex View Post
                            Ru&Lins_05, the forum dewaltownersgroup was created very recently and is maintained by Kanxrus. He wants to create a forum equivalent to this, but unofficial. This is a one guy operation and he doesn't work for Dewalt, I know him. If you actually take time and research it, you will see he did some very good tests. I did similar tests but with hole saws and can confirm Makita BHP451 is the weakest, followed by ridgid.
                            Well if I were him I would ask you not to advertise your relation because as far as I'm concerned there goes his credibilty out the skyscraper penthouse window and . . .

                            Can I have some of your pounded gears I ground out two Dewalts before I went to Ridgid maybe I can rebuild them bit by bit with all of those test drills you trashed thanks

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Pretty Ballsy

                              Originally posted by Spinalzo View Post
                              DRC,

                              I watched all three videos and the compact video featured the white and black compact Makita. Pretty much exactly what I am saying - designs allow manufacturers to do different things. Makitas design, and that of the Milwaukee, allowed them to use lighter, thinner materials as there is nothing of consequence in the handle.

                              I was referring to Lithium XRP, so we are talking about different videos. You are correct, the "compact" section shows the Makita BDF drill.

                              My point is still valid as you can see that makita's base snaps, but in a different spot and you can see pieces flying. The sides of the base are more rigid (just typed that riDgid, lol) because of battery holding rails and you can see the center strip breaks away.

                              The slider battery design doesn't allow you to use cheap materials, you are forgetting Dewalt has 28 and 36v which are sliders. It just allows you to make the handle thinner and thus more ergonomic. The video criticizes the materials and not the design, so let's not make it otherwise.

                              So the consequence to the handle is fracture. If you go to a service center and whow them a drill with a broken handle, it will be treated as user damage and thus - not covered under warranty.

                              Ridgid's will stop (I think already did) producing 24v parts and once the stock is depleted, your LSA will take forever to process. Don't fool yourself, think about it.

                              ----

                              Now, dewal't site has actual dewalt reps answering questions and people rating and reviewing tools, ridgid forum however, is a user-maintained environment and how many people do you think come here to look up tool specs and reviews? It's no different from any other public forum.

                              ----

                              Ru&Lins_05, I try to operate facts, numbers, data. You just post your petty scoffs and attacks, I'm just going to ignore you. If you managed to grind gears in Dewalt you didn't use the right tools. I've seen guys burn out Hilti sds max drills and that's because they were meatheads.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Pretty Ballsy

                                My point exactly, the "slider" design allows a manufacturer to make the handle thinner (ergonomic). If it's found that the best handle is the size of a #2 pencil, the pod design will fight it and point out any weaknesses as it can never get there based on design restrictions. Kudos to DeWalt for making their case, but of all the threads I've read mentioning faults in chucks, triggers, ergonomics, weight, or batteries not a one has mentioned breakage. Let's face it, you drop a tool off the roof of a house you're working on. You climb down and the tool works - believe me you're happy because you really didn't expect it to be - you thought it might, but you were prepared for the worst outcome.

                                Also, are we to assume that the damage was the off-hand toss in the video or from a much greater height? Was it the fall from the work truck that he mentioned in the video? Do the drills always fall where they strike the exact point where they can cause the most damage at the weak point of the ergonomic handle or was that contrived for the video? Did it break every time it was dropped, or just once? Believe me, if there was a rash of breakage on the job site we'd all know it and hear about it, so it's probably not an issue unless someone wants to make it an issue. Listen to the video, the commentator doesn't say "will", but uses the word "might" quite a bit.

                                Again, regarding the Ridgid 24v lifetime service agreement, getting the most commonly used parts should not be a problem. I don't know too many companies that make twelve similar tools and twelve different triggers, brushes, and the like, but they generally share parts amongst their tool lines. Don't try to diminish my chances with hyperbole, I full well understand that if a major part is needed to repair my tool it takes time to affect repairs even if I paid for them out of pocket.

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