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  • New VS older lithium-ion batteries

    If you visit e-bay you can readily notice there seems to be various generations of the 18v lithium-ion batteries.

    The obvious distinction is the way the batteries are labeled.
    The "lithium ion 18v" is different. On the newer? batteries it also says RIDGID. I refer you to the larger 3AH 18v battery. I think the newer version also sports an orange lightning bolt

    Are the batteries inside a different design? or did they simply change the exterior packaging? I ask this as some folks using the earlier lithium ion batteries seemed to have issues.

    By the way my local Home Depot stores [I've been to two] seem to only carry the 18v 1.5AH battery.

    Cactus Man

  • #2
    Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

    old batteries have Moli Energy cells and new ones have Samsung SDI cells. Samsungs are much better.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

      DRC,
      Is it possible to re-build a lithium pack or does the protection/regulation circuit pose a problem. Specifically, packs that utilize 18650 cells. I've rebuilt nicads but obviously there is no pcb to cause issues. Thanks

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

        Did Milwaukee switch to the Samsung cells as well?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

          Originally posted by Scott K View Post
          Did Milwaukee switch to the Samsung cells as well?
          I don't know for certain but it stands to reason that Milwaukee would also use the Samsung cells as they and Ridgid are both manufactured by TTI.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

            Your absolutely correct.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

              Originally posted by Paul5409 View Post
              DRC,
              Is it possible to re-build a lithium pack or does the protection/regulation circuit pose a problem. Specifically, packs that utilize 18650 cells. I've rebuilt nicads but obviously there is no pcb to cause issues. Thanks
              yes you can rebuild packs or even upgrade them to 2.2 Ah cells from Samsung. You need to have a spot soldering station because if you hand-solder them you will ruin the plastic sleeve under the positive terminal and possibly destroy the PTC as well as bake the active element close to the solder point.

              As long as fully charged voltage and fully discharged voltage match, you will be OK. I also noticed that Milwaukee has a tap for each cell in M12 but bosch just charges 3 cells in series as one - you can only rebuild such batteries with self-balancing cells such as Sony 18650VT or INR13Q.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

                Originally posted by DRC-Wartex View Post
                yes you can rebuild packs or even upgrade them to 2.2 Ah cells from Samsung. You need to have a spot soldering station because if you hand-solder them you will ruin the plastic sleeve under the positive terminal and possibly destroy the PTC as well as bake the active element close to the solder point.

                As long as fully charged voltage and fully discharged voltage match, you will be OK. I also noticed that Milwaukee has a tap for each cell in M12 but bosch just charges 3 cells in series as one - you can only rebuild such batteries with self-balancing cells such as Sony 18650VT or INR13Q.
                Thanks for all the very useful info DRC. Any suggestions on where to buy 18650 cells other than DealExtreme or All-Battery.com? I'm always leary of DealExtreme (quality).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

                  hi Paul5409

                  check E-bay you'll find a large variety of 18650 batteries and with various current ratings

                  Cactus Man

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

                    Originally posted by cactusman View Post
                    hi Paul5409

                    check E-bay you'll find a large variety of 18650 batteries and with various current ratings

                    Cactus Man
                    Thanks cactusman but I'm a little skeptical of Ebay- been burned buying on there a few times and lesson learned, I steer clear. Looking more for a company that specializes in nicads, lithiums, or batteries in general.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

                      Protoolreviews.com has an interesting comparison of the new BAT411 and BAT412 models nestled in the review of the Bosch PS21-2A 12V pocket driver.

                      Looks like a stealth upgrade but the new battery has a longer runtime at full charge, so electronics seem to have much to do with performance in addition to the cells (which were not changed from one to the other in this case, still the same Samsung models).

                      It's odd that TTI brands seem to use both Sanyo and Samsung batteries.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

                        Well I'm still waiting for the "newer model" battery charger to arrive.
                        I had an opportunity to open a nicad and lithium-ion 18v battery pack.

                        Talk about old VS new technology!!!!!

                        The nicad unit simply had 15 1.2v nicad cells = 18Vdc

                        The lithium-ion unit had upon opening the cover a circuit board encompassing the entire inside top! I was tempted to remove the 4 screws holding the circuit board to view the batteries underneath but decided not to.

                        So, I glean the following....

                        you can "over-discharge" nicads and destroy them.

                        The Lithium-ion pack has built in protection and sensing circuits. Thus when you reach a predetermined battery value [voltage level and current level] the battery is "turned off" and thus your tool simply stops [suddenly].

                        It is possible to damage the circuit board [I don't know how] but this may explain why some folks had issues trying to recharge the lithium-ion battery.

                        I have yet to compare the single chargers. That is the older unit that does not have the lithium-ion decal to the newer ones that do support the lithium-ion battery decal.

                        Not to stir the pot but perhaps the single charger has not changed internally only the decals..and the charging control is within the battery? This may explain how some on older posts discussed that they were charging their lithium-ion batteries on the older single charger.

                        I realize Ridgid tools and other tool manufacturers think their tool users are all brawn!!!! and do not provide and detailed information on their products..they just figure you think it's magic and when it breaks you drive over it with your pick up truck and buy a new one!

                        I for one would appreciate some discussion about how the batteries work and are protected, plus some details on the charging circuits....some folks call this "theory of operation" and include a block diagram.. when the user understands the products function and limitations they treat it with the proper respect and try not to abuse it!



                        Cactus Man
                        Last edited by cactusman; 07-03-2010, 12:34 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

                          Originally posted by Paul5409 View Post
                          Thanks cactusman but I'm a little skeptical of Ebay- been burned buying on there a few times and lesson learned, I steer clear. Looking more for a company that specializes in nicads, lithiums, or batteries in general.
                          i've been selling/buying on ebay and have never been burned. I hate to say this but 99% of the time it's your own fault for not researching the sellers and items.

                          If you want the next cheapest but legit source, go to sparkfun.com, digikey.com or mouser.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

                            Originally posted by cactusman View Post
                            Well I'm still waiting for the "newer model" battery charger to arrive.
                            I had an opportunity to open a nicad and lithium-ion 18v battery pack.

                            Talk about old VS new technology!!!!!

                            The nicad unit simply had 15 1.2v nicad cells = 18Vdc
                            What did you expect there, a thorium reactor?

                            The lithium-ion unit had upon opening the cover a circuit board encompassing the entire inside top! I was tempted to remove the 4 screws holding the circuit board to view the batteries underneath but decided not to.

                            So, I glean the following....

                            you can "over-discharge" nicads and destroy them.
                            You can't overdischarge nicads (practically) because they are chemically more stable than li-ion. Also the protection unit itself often kills li-ion.

                            The cells are 3.6v, so there are 10 cells stacked in 5x2 configuration.
                            36v tools have 10 cells or 10x2 cells, 28v tools have 4x2 cells. Each cells has a tap that goes to the BMS. BMS has a cpu that controls charging and low voltage cutoff, sometimes cycle count, temp measurement etc. Nothing special about them.

                            The Lithium-ion pack has built in protection and sensing circuits. Thus when you reach a predetermined battery value [voltage level and current level] the battery is "turned off" and thus your tool simply stops [suddenly].

                            It is possible to damage the circuit board [I don't know how]
                            short the (+) onto one or several of the pins on BMS connector.

                            Also 10.8v batteries have no circuitry in them except for a thermistor, sometimes a thermal fuse. Cells have PTC for short protection and tools themselves use a chip with low voltage shutoff.

                            but this may explain why some folks had issues trying to recharge the lithium-ion battery.
                            Some people are dumb and shouldn't use anything more advanced than a dustpan. I've seen all kinds of damaged tools and batteries.

                            I have yet to compare the single chargers. That is the older unit that does not have the lithium-ion decal to the newer ones that do support the lithium-ion battery decal.

                            Not to stir the pot but perhaps the single charger has not changed internally only the decals..and the charging control is within the battery?
                            I doubt it. Doable but not worth it.

                            This may explain how some on older posts discussed that they were charging their lithium-ion batteries on the older single charger.
                            That's just dumb. If the charger is not designed for it, don't use it. Circuit boards can be identical but some resistor, inductor or capacitor values can be tweaked to accommodate li-ion charging voltages and currents (theoretically), so to a layman insides will appear identical and may create an illusion that battery is being charged while it's being actively baked instead.

                            I realize Ridgid tools and other tool manufacturers think their tool users are all brawn!!!! and do not provide and detailed information on their products..they just figure you think it's magic and when it breaks you drive over it with your pick up truck and buy a new one!
                            Specs on european websites and trade shows are a lot more accurate and truthful (esp battery capacities and torque) - check it out if you don't believe me. Most north american users are brawn - people don't care about specs. Walk into any electronics store - tons of inferior products with higher prices than quality products and people buy them anyway. I get into the argument here all the time because people don't care that reality is contradicting their "experience" with a particular brand. Such is the reality of capitalism. Home Depot et al indoctrinates people into brands and people buy them no matter what the specs are.


                            I for one would appreciate some discussion about how the batteries work and are protected, plus some details on the charging circuits....some folks call this "theory of operation" and include a block diagram.. when the user understands the products function and limitations they treat it with the proper respect and try not to abuse it!
                            I've explained many things in detail here but chose to direct my energy more towards my blog instead of arguing with so-called "experts" here, you are free to check it out.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: New VS older lithium-ion batteries

                              With what we've seen the new models are great. I believe they are also a bit lighter which definitely helps on the job. As for eBay, I usually check for the sellers reviews and ratings. Feel comfortable with it first before purchasing. If you don't I'm sure another seller has your item or will eventually lol.
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