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  • NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

    I just heard this a few minutes ago on NPR. I don't think their numbers are correct, but it certainly sounds like the problem is absolutely horrendous....40,000 accidents a year?

    Advocates Urge Lawmakers To Make Table Saws Safer : NPR


    CWS

  • #2
    Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

    its 40,000 accidents from "power tools" and I bet the number is MUCH lower for table saw injuries! I can't stand this crap. Its nanny state I know whats better for you bull crap! Before you know it we are going to need to go take tests and get "Tool Licenses" just so its "ok" to use our screw driver as to not hurt ourselves! And people wonder why we all feel that we are not "free" anymore, we have so many mandates and laws its the proverbial monkey on our back, but its becoming more like an ape!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

      no doubt, cowboy... if someone removes a blade guard & then cuts off his hand, somehow the "logical" reaction is to mandate that blade guards are permanently installed, not "hey stupid! leave the guards on!!" Just like the moron that won millions because she put a cup of coffee in her crotch & burned herself. Coffee is hot? huh..... I wish someone would have told me....

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

        Originally posted by Alphacowboy View Post
        its 40,000 accidents from "power tools" and I bet the number is MUCH lower for table saw injuries!

        Actually, I think 40,000 is for table saw injuries. I know that the average number of injuries reported by emergency rooms was well over 30,000 before riving knifes were made mandatory and that number does not include workplace injuries.

        I have no problem with the government making products safer, including adding riving knives on table saws or air bags in cars. I do not agree with adding a mandatory safety feature that benefits a single company (SawStop) or dramatically increases product price.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

          Why... if I personally want a saw without guards, a car without airbags, why should you care? The majority of people would probably buy the car with an airbag anyway, but I don't get why it had to be "mandated" by the "smart people" in DC. What happened to personal responsibility?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

            Originally posted by Alphacowboy View Post
            What happened to personal responsibility?

            Where have you been for the last forty years? (I meant that in jest )

            I have no idea where "personal responsibility" has gone... perhaps out the door when people learned they could sue over a cup of hot coffee! I think it is extremely rare when anybody "owns up" to their own faults and stupidities. Actually, I think the "responsibility" fault is far older than any of us. My Dad used to say that too many people were born with "mouth piece" (slang back then for a "lawyer") instead of a brain. He always used to say that nobody should be able to profit from thier own stupidity or neglect.

            Regarding this "Saw Stop" issue, I do admit that I have a very difficult time with it and especially the way this guy has managed the courts, the press, and now NPR into framing this issue in a manner that says that the "Saw Stop" technology is the ONLY safe measure. I just don't agree with that narrow point of view. Of course I understand that this guy has come up with a great invention and it should pay off for him. But, I don't think he should be able to force it on us or use the media and the government to aid him in such enforcement.

            On this morning's report, they interviewed some poor guy who reached over his spinning saw blade, catching his forearm which then got pulled back into the blade causing extreme laceration right into the bone. I winced, but GEEZ was this guy an idiot or what? Worse was the reporter who apparently knew nothing of shop tools. Nobody asked where the "blade guard" was!

            My Dad lost a few fingers on a table saw in 1958. I was 14 at the time and was there and I can still here the sound and vividly see the resulting mess. Dad survived without those fingers, but had years of pain. For me, I didn't get my first table saw until about five years ago. (I've had a RAS for a few decades though.) But as I look back, I can see that my Dad made a lot of mistakes and I can see it was just an accident waiting to happen. No blade guard, using a shaper head to cut a rabbit on chip board, no push stick, no feather boards or hold downs.... just good old American manliness. Those WWII vets were all tough guys, and not afraid on noth'n. And when things went wrong, they owned up... "don't need no lawyers, it was MY fault." I remember the guy he was doing the work for (and who owned the saw) paid all the hospital bills and that was pretty much the end of it.

            The problem with table saws, IMHO, is poor education, poor work habits, and perhaps inattention due to any number of factors. While "Saw Stop" technology will certainly save a few fingers, I think the motivation is more about making $millions, and in so doing it is going to take woodworking out of the hands of the DIY homeowner and the weekend hobbyist. Yes, it will save a few fingers and perhaps worse lacerations, but then what else will it cause: people jury-rigging their saws after the first "Saw Stop" incident and the thing is simply not in the budget to fix? The little guy who can't afford the expensive saw will then rig up his circular saw they way too many did back the 50's and before (now there's safety for you)? Also what kind of lifespan does one have with the technology, how long does it last, does it work and continue to work in damp conditions, what if the user is wearing those ever popular work gloves, or perhaps has poor circular or a skin conditon that the technology doesn't detect (I don't know the specifics of the technology, other than I'm of the impression that it works on electrical conductivity of the skin.) I just see some idiot showing off and sticking his finger into a moving blade or worse, having his little kid do that to immulate his show-off Dad.

            I don't think there are easy answers to the saw accident problem. Employer's should know if their workers are experienced, but then who defines "experience" and doesn't an employer already have enough responsibility without also being liable for a workers idiocy?

            Bottom line is that I don't think any of us want more government mandated safety for things like this. But I think that somehow we've got to start speaking up and fighting this kind of story before all those vote seekers get the idea that they'll make a name for themselves by supporting such inforcement. To go along with that, what are the current manufacturer's doing to promote safety and step up their fight against mandating of the "SawStop" technology. I still can't figure out how Ryobi lost this accident case a year or so ago. It was almost like they just gave in and had no voice of "experience" in the court room.

            CWS
            Last edited by CWSmith; 05-25-2011, 10:41 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

              Government is doing more for me than I can afford now...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

                "Now we are on food stamps, medical assistance, energy assistance," he says. "I want to call it a living nightmare."
                Above quote is from the NPR article.

                Please tell us Mr. Professional Carpenter; where was the blade guard when this happened? Because If the blade guard was on the saw (providing the cut allowed it to be used) YOU would not have a case in my court. YOUR negligence led to your injury. Case closed. To award any injury against an existing saw is ludicrous. You would have to outlaw and force people to turn in their old style table saws for this to have any weight.

                I have no problem with making table saws safer. I have a problem with every manufacturer being forced to use SawStop technology though.


                ----
                On an unrelated note. I still dislike this default grayed out text.
                ---------------
                Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                ---------------
                “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                ---------
                "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                ---------
                sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

                  Originally posted by cjh20 View Post
                  I have no problem with the government making products safer...
                  I just can't stop laughing... that's some funny stuff right there. "The Government", as an entity, does damn few things well, and absolutely nothing efficiently.
                  "HONK if you've never seen a gun fired from a moving Harley"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

                    It's a great strategy on the part of SawStop - get the technology incorporated by regulation. This has worked well for a number of other companies that have integrated their stuff into various codes and laws through the years.

                    What we have in the US is a nanny state. That's a lawyer invention... and most politicians are trained as, well you know that answer.

                    Fact is, the Constitution does not grant the Gov't any right to legislate safety. It only grants the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". In fact, it actually prohibits this sort of thing as the Gov't is not allowed to muck with free trade. Of course, that's exactly what they do now in almost all areas of life. Which is a big reason Companies are takling their jobs offshore. Which is, at the bottom line, why the wheels are coming off the cart here in the US. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say, "and protect people from hurting themselves because they are ignorant, poorly trained and/or careless". THe people in DC think that they can do whatever they see fit to do. NOT SO... although they get away with it. There ARE rules that limit what they can do.... it's called the Constitution.

                    If this ever results in sawstop being incorporated by law, then all that will happen is the price of saws will go up dramatically and people will get hurt with makeshift contraptions to saw wood.

                    It seems to me it's similar to low flow toilets. I don't quite understand how it helps to have a toilet that uses less per flush, but has to be flushed multiple times. Even if they DID have the authority (and they don't) why didn't they mandate dual flush? Because it's the Government... and they are really, really bad at regulating.
                    Last edited by Andy_M; 05-26-2011, 05:10 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

                      Generally I try to limit myself to woodworking discussions on this forum, but since I was lackadaisical writing my first post in this thread, I might as well continue (in for a penny in for a pound). I hope that I have time this weekend to reply to some comments, but for now I have to limit myself to just one. I don't mean this comment to be derogatory, just in the nature of clarification.


                      Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                      Fact is, the Constitution does not grant the Gov't any right to legislate safety. It only grants the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"..
                      First the government has the ability and right under the constitution to do a great many things. Most of these rights are granted to state governments. The Federal government has the right under the Constitution to do many things other than the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". In fact that quote is from the Declaration of Independence, not the United States Constitution.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

                        Originally posted by cjh20 View Post
                        Generally I try to limit myself to woodworking discussions on this forum, but since I was lackadaisical writing my first post in this thread, I might as well continue (in for a penny in for a pound). I hope that I have time this weekend to reply to some comments, but for now I have to limit myself to just one. I don't mean this comment to be derogatory, just in the nature of clarification.




                        First the government has the ability and right under the constitution to do a great many things. Most of these rights are granted to state governments. The Federal government has the right under the Constitution to do many things other than the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". In fact that quote is from the Declaration of Independence, not the United States Constitution.

                        You are right, the quote was from the Declaration. The point I was trying to make, however, is that the Constitution does not grant the right to "safety" to its citizens, nor does it empower the Federal Government to impose such regulation. The Constitution and the rights it guarantees are essentially aimed at the words cited from the Delaration of Independence. Providing for safety of commercial products is not one of thee rights... nor is healthcare, unemployment insurance or any of the other enitlements which threaten to sink this ship.

                        The powers vested in Congress per Art 1 Section 1 are specifically enumerated in Art 1 Section 8 of the Constitution (with limitations cited in Art 1 Section 9). Nowhere does it grant the authority to regulate safety of commercial products. The closest thing to that would be the first sentence of Section 8, which empowers Congress to "provide for the common Defence and general Welfare". Very many regulations and laws imposed by the Federal Government are not hardly consistent with the "general Welfare".

                        The Constitution does not similarly enumerate State's legislative powers, other than to enumerate the limits thereto in Art 1 Section 10. Powers not specifically granted to the Federal Government by the constitution and not prohibited per Section 10 are in the jurisdiction of the States. It's not a case of the Federal Government granting such authority to the States. In fact, Art IV, section 4 states quite the opposite, by guaranteeing States a Republican form of Federal Government.

                        The Framers envisioned a small central Government with powers limited to a minimal set necessary to operate a soveregn nation (Art 1 section 8). Currently, Congress has legislated far beyond the powers granted by the Constitution, which has led to massive expansion of the Federal Government and commensurte mind-boggling and unsustainable expense. Hardly, IMO, promotion of the "general Welfare".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

                          Thank - you - Andy! If we had more citizens that payed attention to this as much as you, we wouldn't be in the pickle we are now in. Imagine that, teach about the constitution in school instead of bs curriculum they do teach...

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                          • #14
                            Re: NPR Reports Table Saw Safety Issue

                            Originally posted by Alphacowboy View Post
                            Thank - you - Andy! If we had more citizens that payed attention to this as much as you, we wouldn't be in the pickle we are now in. Imagine that, teach about the constitution in school instead of bs curriculum they do teach...
                            I appreciate the comment! Although I have to admit that I am a little fanatical about all this. To me the Constitution is unquestionably history's defining work of Government. Everytime I hear someone argue that it's out of date or doesn't apply... well, that raises my blood pressure. Every problem we have today could have been completely avoided if we stuck to the damn thing instead of emasculating it a little bit at a time.

                            Yes it would be good if the Constitution was given due respect. After all, the whole thing only takes a few minutes to read (notwithstanding the amendments). Compare that to 6000 pages of healthcare reform!

                            Jefferson, Madison, et al. True leaders and brilliant Americans. We sure could use them today.

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