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New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

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  • #16
    Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

    I would think that 0.005" is more than enough for any woodworker.... HOWEVER, "repeatability" is a real necessity and if you don't have repeatability, then you have a junk tool. IMHO.

    Personally, I wish I had had the money to buy a 3650 when they were available, as I think it was a spectacular saw for the price. Unfortunately I was not at a point where I could have dropped that kind of money at that time. Instead, I ended up buying a Ryobi BT3100 about a year later when that saw was on clearance for $150. (It had been $300.) Now I know that far too many looked at the Ryobi as an aluminum and plastic "toy", but frankly I've been very pleased with mine; and for such a low-priced tool it is very accurate and "repeatability" is absolutely there for me. Certainly it is not a big, strong induction-motored beast, but it does what I need it to do...make accurate cuts.

    The point is that a manufacturer doesn't have to make a $1,000 beast in order to make a good saw. They simply have to pay attention to details and ensure quality throughout the whole process.... design, materials, manufacturing, delivery, retailing, and service! Unfortunately I think TTI has fallen down on four out of five of those details, but especially on the last three!

    I know that my feelings are turning into a harp on Home Depot, but the way those people handle almost everything they sell is pathetically poor. So much gets reported on broken and missing parts, stuff that is damaged in the stores because of poor handling. Worse is that there is absolutely nothing in the system to address issues like those posted by the originator of this thread. Everyone cannot have a Home Depot just down the block and even if that were the case, a product such as this poses a handling problem for many of us... it's not an easy task to just return it. Yet even for what could be a minor problem of a stripped or missing part, or an alignment issue, there seems to be no easy method of solving it, except to return the product.

    CWS
    Last edited by CWSmith; 01-12-2014, 11:07 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

      .005" can also be a safety issue. If the blade is out .005" front to back then when the wood moves past the blade it will drag as it exits the blade. Best case is it justs gives you a ragged edge. Worse case it grabs the wood and throws it at you. Maybe you get out of the way in time and maybe you don't. If you've ever seen a piece of wood come flying off a tablesaw and stick in the wall 15 feet away then you know you don't want to be in the way.
      "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
      John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

        I rather doubt any table saw fence in this price range will stay .005" square everytime it's adjusted. We're talking about 1.5 sheets of copy paper. That's pretty darn tight for a wood cutting saw.

        Rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

          Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
          it's sad to say but Ridgid-US does NOT listen to it's customers about tool quality, marketing, requests or development. Apparently the largest consumer market in the world means nothing and all the developments come from Europe or Austral-asia.

          the problems you describe with your saw are common and ongoing.

          Please update us with your next purchase, how it addresses your needs, and how it is different to the Ridgid product.
          I will do that thanks. I still have not decided 100% on what I am doing.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
            honestly? 5 thousanths of an inch and your rejecting the accuracy. we're not talking about a $50,000 cnc machine. we're talking about a $500. table saw.


            I would think anyone getting 5 thousanths of an inch repeatability on a wood cutting saw would be thrilled.


            ive owned 3 tablesaws and not that I measured them with a dial indicator, but wood is not a spaceship. I really think you're expecting precision from a $500. saw. it's not going to happen.


            Rick.

            Hi Rick, Yes we are talking about a $500 table saw and perhaps you are the voice of reason here. I certainly do agree with you too some extent.


            I had an old saw made in the 40's that had better build and accuracy than this. So to just dismiss it as merely a $500 item is a bit complacent I find. I don't think there is anything wrong to expect the best regardless at any price. However, I do believe you get what you pay for.

            The internet is full of misinformation. There is however a rather large community of woodworkers who claim to get better precision from machines like this. I do not know if that is recycled info, exaggeration or perhaps the result of poor measuring technique etc. When you are dealing in near microscopic tolerances a simple bump or even parallax error from reading the dial can display variations.

            I would be thrilled with 0.005" runout collectively between everything. Where I am a little unsettled is that it isn't just the blade to miter slot alignment that contributes. If perhaps my fence cannot be dialed in properly or my saw is always slipping out here and there then perhaps this can all accumulate to something greater. All I simply want is some consistency within reasonable tolerances. I am not a machinist but how hard is it to raise and lower a blade? Table saws are not that complicated. This is my ignorance speaking however.

            I am also seeing these issues through the filter of receiving a missing bolt that has still not arrived resulting in my saw sitting dormant atm. I also have a faulty mount for the riving knife where is simply does not go flush do to a set screw etc (as described before). Price aside, when I buy a new product I appreciate that everything is at least there to use it. But stuff happens.

            I agree wood is not a spaceship but a tablesaw is not made of wood either or does wood morph and change as you are cutting it.

            I admit, your stance has had me rethinking my decision and I do appreciate the grounding nature of your post. I do however still feel there are some variables that don't equate to what I consider the greatest.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

              Nice, I found the multi-quote feature.

              Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
              To me, something that's billed to be a professional product should act as a professional product. I know hobby grade wood workers that produce some of the finest highest quality wood products out there and to be off by 1/32 of an inch would be unacceptable.
              Exactly, I agree

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              5 thousands of an inch .005'' is not 1/32''.


              1/32'' = .03125
              1/64'' =.015625
              1/128''=.0078125
              1/256'' = .00390625
              so as you can see, .005 is less than 1/128''. and slightly more than 1/256'' of an inch. do you really think anyone other than a machinist can tell or measure this small of a discrepancy? heck wood will shrink and grow much more based on humidity and moisture content alone.


              rick.
              Well part of the problem is I am not a machinist and I can measure it. The dreaded dial indicator crossing over to the woodworking world.

              In all honesty setting up a table saw is more of a "machinist" job than woodworking. Just because in the woodworking world wood shrinks and grows should not dismiss the accuracy and set up of a machine. There are some people that will set their table saw fence to a few thousand runout at the end to avoid binding/kickback etc. I highly doubt that is going to be the factor that prevents it.

              Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
              I would think that 0.005" is more than enough for any woodworker.... HOWEVER, "repeatability" is a real necessity and if you don't have repeatability, then you have a junk tool. IMHO.

              Personally, I wish I had had the money to buy a 3650 when they were available, as I think it was a spectacular saw for the price. Unfortunately I was not at a point where I could have dropped that kind of money at that time. Instead, I ended up buying a Ryobi BT3100 about a year later when that saw was on clearance for $150. (It had been $300.) Now I know that far too many looked at the Ryobi as an aluminum and plastic "toy", but frankly I've been very pleased with mine; and for such a low-priced tool it is very accurate and "repeatability" is absolutely there for me. Certainly it is not a big, strong induction-motored beast, but it does what I need it to do...make accurate cuts.

              The point is that a manufacturer doesn't have to make a $1,000 beast in order to make a good saw. They simply have to pay attention to details and ensure quality throughout the whole process.... design, materials, manufacturing, delivery, retailing, and service! Unfortunately I think TTI has fallen down on four out of five of those details, but especially on the last three!

              I know that my feelings are turning into a harp on Home Depot, but the way those people handle almost everything they sell is pathetically poor. So much gets reported on broken and missing parts, stuff that is damaged in the stores because of poor handling. Worse is that there is absolutely nothing in the system to address issues like those posted by the originator of this thread. Everyone cannot have a Home Depot just down the block and even if that were the case, a product such as this poses a handling problem for many of us... it's not an easy task to just return it. Yet even for what could be a minor problem of a stripped or missing part, or an alignment issue, there seems to be no easy method of solving it, except to return the product.

              CWS
              Thanks so much CWS, I completely agree. In a perfect world there would at least be a technician that could do on site repairs etc. A giant heavy machine and a missing bolt should not cripple the operation for weeks.

              Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
              .005" can also be a safety issue. If the blade is out .005" front to back then when the wood moves past the blade it will drag as it exits the blade. Best case is it justs gives you a ragged edge. Worse case it grabs the wood and throws it at you. Maybe you get out of the way in time and maybe you don't. If you've ever seen a piece of wood come flying off a tablesaw and stick in the wall 15 feet away then you know you don't want to be in the way.

              I am with you Bob, a machine should be set up fairly well. It looks as if 0.005" is the max of what most consider acceptable (according to the internet). I do not want to test this theory though. Do you think we are expecting too much? After some further research I cannot get a grip on what is considered reasonable and safe.

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              I rather doubt any table saw fence in this price range will stay .005" square everytime it's adjusted. We're talking about 1.5 sheets of copy paper. That's pretty darn tight for a wood cutting saw.

              Rick.
              I have an aftermarket fence that while more simple in design it is comparable to the quality of the one on the ridgid (the companies owner was completely honest and said they are pretty much of equal quality). I will most likely be swapping it out if I have a change of heart and decide to keep the saw since it does stay completey square once set. The biggest factor from what I can tell is because it locks at the front only. This is a $250 fence.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

                I am trying to get back to everyone. Sorry if this is overkill or anyone is missed.


                Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                It didn't used to be this way, their stationary WWing power tools were very good when Emerson made them, and for a short while after production went over to TTI and they were still based on emerson designs. Many people here consider the TS3612 to be one of their last best saws, I believe the TS3650 and 3660 were the last on the best which came a couple years later. Those models went out of production about 10 years ago. I had a TS3650 which I bought in Dec 2003 and sold in 2011. It was an excellent TS and I wish I not had not sold it but kept it as a second TS to my Unisaw.

                Personally I don't know how good their current line of tablesaws is compared to what else is out there but have read here many tales describing setup and alignment problems such as yours.

                Isn't there a telephone number in the assembly mannual they tell you to call if missing or damaged parts are encountered or do they tell you to deal with the local repair facility? In CA do you have the 90 days to return if dissatisified as here in the US? If yes then I would hold them to that. If the blade alignment issue and defective parts can not be corrected in 90 days take it back.

                In todays market if I were to do it all over again and didn't want to spend the money for a full cabinet saw such as the Unisaw I would seriously consider a Jet, Powermatic, or maybe even a Steel City saw in the US$800 to $1200 price range and forget the low end entry level contractor models. The Sawstop is nice yes but even the contractor model starts at abour US$1500 which is crazy for a contractor saw I think. Any TS you buy in the 400 to 700 range will be at the same level of quality as the 4512 in my opinion. You might want to consider a good jobsite saw like the DeWalt DW748 or 749 or similar saws from Bosch or possibly the RIDGID jobsite saw but I think the deWalt is the nicest of this bunch. They run about the same in dollars as the 4512.
                So many consider the TS3650 the last table saw by Ridgid that is good. I guess this is where I do get a tad frustrated. If it was there before then why not now? I guess things change for a reason but they seemed to have a real winner. There is a saw made here in Canada (Craftex CT146) apparantly they bought the TS3650 design. It goes on sale for the exact price of the ridgid r4512 ($499). I liked the idea of the lift, riving knife and the LSA that came with the Ridgid. I do have 90 days and I have not even thought of looking in the manual for a phone number. I will do that. Thanks for the other suggestions. I just do this for a hobby and venturing into a higher price is not practical for me. I have been casually looking used but am not entirely sold on that.

                Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                Maybe you don't see .005" as a problem Rick, but repeatability and varying alignment when the blade height is adjusted are valid concerns. That .005" can add up to when you put together a couple pieces. When cuts are not square you will have alignment issues during assembly that will frustrate you to no end. So returning a poor performing TS and spending a couple hundred more on a saw which does not have those problems does two things.

                1. You get a decent TS that will not cause you to waste material or your time trying to keep it aligned.
                2. You let the manufacturer of the junk saw know that you are not going to spend your money on a cr@p product with poor support after the sale.

                If dollars is all that drives them (an assumption since their CS is so poor) then your only weapon is to NOT BUY and watch their sales and profits plummet. It sounds like they may have a case of Detroit Syndrome (we know what's best for you even if you don't think so), which the domestic auto industry has fought to overcome for many years and may now be on the verge of conquering.

                As you said;


                So you acknowledge that this TS is a POC, I am glad we agree on that.

                Thanks Bob, I agree!

                Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                You might want to do some searching on eBay or Craigs List for a used cabinet saw.
                you should be able to find a 5 to 10 year old cabinet saw with much better quality than any current contractor saw for under US$1000, give it a little TLC, and have a very nice, quality saw.
                the TS is the heart of most shops, don't skimp on quality. Drop another tool from your list or put off the purchase of some other tool if you can and buy the best TS you can. Don't 'settle' for something less than you will be happy with or you'll be kicking yourself in the butt from now until you replace it.
                I agree again. My problem in life in general is I am a must have the best type. The other problem is I cannot always afford it so I look for something that is reasonable and that others have generally been happy with. I have gone the old tool route for almost all of my tools and have rebuilt them (bandsaw, jointer, table saws etc). I have grown tired of the process and am really hoping for something new and covered under a service agreement. However, buying new gives me frustrations as well....

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

                  UPDATE

                  I have not called ridgid yet since I am waiting for them to open.


                  I spent some time doing some measurements etc. and really trying to consider all angles. I measured the blade @ 90 degrees to the miter slot at various saw heights. It is about 50/50 perfect. I either get within 0.001" runout or 0.005" and it is all dependent on the height. When I get the 0.005" runout I can basically lightly wiggle the height adjustment and it will fall back in line to 0.001". This is really good but still unpredictable since realistically I am not going to use a dial indicator to check for squareness to the mitre slot every time I move the blade height. however, mechanically it will align. I just don't know when.

                  I checked the blade to miter squareness @ 45 degrees blade tilt and it is terrible 15/1000". I don't want to shim the table top to correct this and lose my other alignment. So I will either not use the tilt, adjust it later or give up and return the saw.


                  Anyway, that is all the time and energy I currently have on the matter. Thanks for reading.

                  If I can get the fence squared to the blade I may be able to live with this. I really don't know anymore!!!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

                    Originally posted by Jk78 View Post
                    This is a $250 fence.

                    Expensive aftermarket parts for a hobby saw?

                    IMHO if you are going to spend good money on accessories, spend good money on a saw.
                    ~~

                    ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

                      I agree, I acquired it a couple years ago. It is not something I would normally buy.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

                        Replacements for defective items from new RIDGID power tool and accessory purchases can be obtained by contacting the RIDGID customer service phone staff at 1-866-539-1710, Monday through Friday between 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. EST, and Saturday and Sunday between 8:00 AM and 4:00 PM EST, and providing your shipping address, and the tool or accessory model and serial number for the product that the items were not included with.

                        I bypassed the service repair center and the parts will arrive in 7-14 days to Canada. I will give the saw a try when they arrive and see what happens.

                        Thanks everyone

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

                          Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
                          ... and to be off by 1/32 of an inch would be unacceptable.
                          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                          5 thousands of an inch .005'' is not 1/32''...
                          I meant to say even 1/32 of an inch. eh, little late now. fast thoughts, crappy typing...
                          ~~

                          ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

                            Received email confirmation from ridgid listing the parts that are on the way.

                            The lady I spoke with on the phone was fairly neutral (not friendly, not mean). I would give a part number and she would say "next". Ordering a nut, bolt and washer requires giving a long part number for each. Over the phone is not the best method but that is all they offered.

                            Anyway, The rear clamp for the riving knife as previously mentioned is not included with my order confirmation, so I will have to make another call if I don't return the saw in the meantime.

                            Alignment issues aside obtaining these parts is a bit tedious and this is starting to add up.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues


                              I checked the blade to miter squareness @ 45 degrees blade tilt and it is
                              terrible 15/1000". I don't want to shim the table top to correct this and lose
                              my other alignment. So I will either not use the tilt, adjust it later or give
                              up and return the saw.
                              There should be enough adjustment to get the 45 tilt right on the money. Not sure how its set up on this model saw
                              but my 3650 was adjusted using two setscrews through the TS top. It was very easy and accurate, took all of 5
                              minutes to set both the 45 and 90 setscrews.
                              "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                              John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: New Ridgid R4512 help needed on some "minor" issues

                                I'm not sure what you are having issues with but the miter gauge and the bevel stop adjustments don't involve shims. Did you read the operator's manual? And when i had an issue with the miter lock knob on mine i called them and had the parts in my hand in 3 days. You will be hard pressed to find a better saw in this price range.

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