Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Speeding up the TS3650?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Speeding up the TS3650?

    I bought this saw a couple months ago to upgrade from a Ryobi BT3000. Unfortunately, I find myself turning to the Ryobi when I need smooth, precise cuts. The new saw is just not cutting it (pun intended).

    I've use a dial indicator to verify no runout, blade parallel to the miter slot, and even got a Incra 1000se miter gauge. A large drafting square shows I'm getting 90 degree crosscuts.
    Yet I can easily take my various Freud and Tenryu blades between the 2 saws and there's just no comparison. Thin kerf blades are the worst...they seem to shimmy or something on this new saw, particularly as the blade first eners the workpiece, and not on the BT3000. Yet the arbor seems, if anything, even more solid and beefy on the Ridgid.

    The only thing I can think of is the arbor speed is 4800 vs 3450 on the new saw. So I'd like to try an experiment, by increasing the pulley size on the Ridgid motor. However, I don't even know what this grooved type of pulley is called, where I might find a larger replacement, or how to determine the size vs increase in speed. Obviously there will be some maximum size that I can't go beyond or the belt won't fit. But if I could get say, a 25% speed increase, I think it would be worth trying.

    Anybody got any ideas?

  • #2
    Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

    I am sure others will chime in, but I have to think you got a problem that is NOT speed related.

    I have the 3650 as well as many others here do and it cuts beautiful, even with thin kerf blades.

    Just a thought, are you sure that the belt is adjusted correctly (adjusted by motor location) so that its not slipping during cuts and slowing the saw down, even just a little bit will affect performance??

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

      Big 10 inch (blade size) professional cabinet style table saws run the spindle at 3000 RPM and give great cuts. I wonder if you have a bad spindle, spindle bearings, blade flanges or such. Have you tried a good full kerf blade that's designed and rated for a given type of cut and material that you're sawing? Thin kerf blades seem to in many cases just not work out that well for table saws. The TS3650 has enough motor that you sould be fine with a full kerf blade as long as you take your time feeding the wood and not force things. Running it with a higher spindle speed you'll more than likely burn the cuts and can end up overloading the motor. Also at higher RPM vibration will increase big time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

        Originally posted by Woussko View Post
        Big 10 inch (blade size) professional cabinet style table saws run the spindle at 3000 RPM and give great cuts. I wonder if you have a bad spindle, spindle bearings, blade flanges or such. Have you tried a good full kerf blade that's designed and rated for a given type of cut and material that you're sawing? Thin kerf blades seem to in many cases just not work out that well for table saws. The TS3650 has enough motor that you sould be fine with a full kerf blade as long as you take your time feeding the wood and not force things. Running it with a higher spindle speed you'll more than likely burn the cuts and can end up overloading the motor. Also at higher RPM vibration will increase big time.
        My Tenryu 40 tooth is standard kerf and gives much better results...just not as good as when I use it on on the Ryobi. I'm sure a lot of folks will say "get a Forrest" , but if it takes a $100 blade on this saw to equal a $40 blade on the on the BT, I'm not so sure I want to throw good money after bad. I have half a dozen blades already...Freud, Tenryu, and DeWalt.

        My dial gauge and homemade jig show less than .002" runout, and the parralleism using the same tooth on the blade shows .001". If there's a bad spindle or bearing, I don't know how else to find it. Just grabbing the arbor and trying to wiggle it shows no movement at all.

        If I crosscut something wide, like 6" or 8" the leading edge of the stock will get scraped up as it passes the rear teeth of the blade. Only on the left side. The waste piece looks smooth. This would indicate the rear of the blade is leftward, compared to the front of the blade.

        But my dial indicator says it's .001 rightward

        And trying to trim 1/32" off of a previously cut edge leaves a rippled look when using the thinkerf blades.

        Very frustrating....

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

          Originally posted by biscuit View Post
          I am sure others will chime in, but I have to think you got a problem that is NOT speed related.

          I have the 3650 as well as many others here do and it cuts beautiful, even with thin kerf blades.

          Just a thought, are you sure that the belt is adjusted correctly (adjusted by motor location) so that its not slipping during cuts and slowing the saw down, even just a little bit will affect performance??
          I have the motor pulled back enough so that it doesn't hit the stops on the bracket, and the pulleys look to be aligned with each other. Is there something else that can be done?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

            There are several 3650 owners who stepped up from a BT, and nearly all comments favor the 3650. It doesn't sound like a speed issue...increasing the speed would lower your torque and wouldn't likely do anything to change the cut quality. High quality TK's shouldn't pose an issue, and if your full kerfs present the same issue, then it's not a blade problem.

            I have no way of knowing for sure, but it does sound like something's amiss on the 3650....how flat is the throat insert? Do you have a ZCI? Does the cut problem present itself in both crosscuts and rip cuts? Is the splitter aligned? Are the trunnion bolts tight enough to prevent movement? Is there a burr on the arbor flange? Loads of things to check before playing with pulley sizes.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

              Originally posted by hewood View Post
              Loads of things to check before playing with pulley sizes.
              Yes, and to the best my ability I've checked them all. That's how I've come to this farfetched proposal

              Something that bugs me...I never even had to own a dial gauge prior to this. I was able to align the old saw with feeler gauges. I just don't think .001" here or there is the cause of my issues.

              I also think "good cut" is relative...many folks here upgrade from an inexpensive jobsite saw to the Ridgid and are impressed. But to spend $500 and get a worse cut is disappointing.

              The one improvement is that the cuts are perfectly perpendicular to the table. The Ryobi had a 3-piece work surface with a very narrow main table, and getting perfectly 90 degrees was sometimes difficult. The two moveable tables were at different heights from the main table.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

                Something is wrong there. The TS3650 should be giving nice clean cuts.

                Please try this and post results. With the power cord unplugged have a helper gently pull on the belt so as to slowly rotate the blade. Then with reading glasses on (if you have and need them) stare at the blade from several angles. Can you see any wobble at all?

                Next using a good square check everything again. Be sure your rip fence is just a bit farther from the rear of the blade (same tooth) than the front.

                If all of that checks out, try removing the drive belt and the blade. Then grab the arbor shaft and rotate it by hand. Is there any ruffness at all? Does it turn easy or with resistance. Try moving it side to side and endwise. If you can, use the dial indicator and measure movement. Have a helper double check everything as you go along and make notes.

                Try the blade runout test using another blade. Also be sure the arbor threads are super clean, that the blade flanges are clean and smooth and that your blades are nice and clean as well.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

                  Originally posted by jbateman View Post
                  ...I also think "good cut" is relative...many folks here upgrade from an inexpensive jobsite saw to the Ridgid and are impressed. But to spend $500 and get a worse cut is disappointing.
                  I understand the relative part, that's why I pointed to former owners of the same saw you had. This is the first comment I've heard from someone who upgraded from the BT to the 3650 (or even other comparable saws) who've claimed inferior cut quality, which leads me to believe it's an isolated issue with your particular saw. That doesn't mean others aren't in a similar situation, but I haven't read about it.

                  I'd consider exchanging it for another at this point....it truly sounds like something isn't right. If you get the same problem with a another 3650, then I'd definitely consider returning it and plotting out a plan B (different saw) as opposed to messing with the pulleys. I'm not a 3650 owner, but there are lots of satisfied owners. I've heard a few complaints about leg strength, plastic handles, fence design, power, motor vibrations, DC, the motor location, too many turns on the hand wheel, etc., but poor cut quality is not a beef I've heard before.

                  Good luck...
                  Last edited by hewood; 06-08-2007, 02:27 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

                    Either take it back and get a different one or get your $$$ back and buy something else. I own the Ryobi and it sucks compared to the 3650, which I also own. So I think you just got a bad something going on. Sorry to here this, but I'm telling you from experience, 3650 wins hands down.
                    I have also ran many other T.S., 3650 is damn nice for the $$$$. I would think about exchanging it, pain in the *** but it is a nice saw. Fix it, return it for $$$ or exchange it, are there any other options?
                    Great Link for a Construction Owner/Tradesmen, and just say Garager sent you....

                    http://www.contractorspub.com

                    A good climbing rope will last you 3 to 5 years, a bad climbing rope will last you a life time !!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

                      There are several elements that can cause a rough cut. Wood density and feed rate can have a drastic effect on the quality of the cut, among other issues.

                      Do a recheck of the splitter alignment. Don't just check it at the table, but a couple inches up as well. Verify that the splitter is straight front to back. Do you notice a need to push a little harder as the wood goes past the back of the splitter? Since you mentioned the back of the blade scraping, I'm thinking the splitter is not straight front to back. Getting the splitter absolutely aligned took me a good amount of time and effort. I did have to put it in the vice and beat it just a bit to get it perfectly straight up and down, front to back. Once that was done, I find I can take the splitter off and put it back and it stays perfectly aligned.

                      Also, As other have stated, it's wise to thoroughly check the arbor for any spurs, rough spots, or flat areas.

                      Recheck the trunion bolts. Make sure they're tight. If they're loose, make sure the blade is parallel to the miter slot and tighten all the bolts. Check for miter slot alignment again once they're all tight.

                      Now that my splitter is aligned, I can resaw on the TS. I ran a 2" tall piece of tiger maple (relatively hard wood) through the TS (Forrest WWII blade) and sliced off a very neat 1/4" piece. The cut was absolutely smooth. It took two passes to accomplish it, but it really did nicely!

                      Keep in mind I'm a relative newbie to all this. Getting my saw tuned and aligned has been an ongoing process over the past year or so. Now that I have ZCI's and good blades, along with having everything aligned properly, it cuts like a silk dream!
                      I put it all back together better than before. There\'s lots of leftover parts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

                        I would also look at the throat plate, assuming all your measurements are indeed accurate. The stock plate on my new 3650 was really cupped. I managed to "bend" it and make it pretty flat, but then made ZCI and ordered a Leecraft ZCI. I used Freud thin kerf blades and noticed a vast improvemnt in the cuts after using the homemade ZCI and the Freud blades vs the stock blade.

                        Did you check how parallel the fence is to the blade/miter slot, can't remember if you did this?

                        It could also be that you need to massage yoru technique? You were probably used to using and learned a particular technique with your other saw to get great results. Maybe you need to adjust your technicque to suit the 3650 which is a different saw.

                        Cheers Dennis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

                          jbateman,

                          Greetings. Sorry, I just had to make some response to your problem. I rarely post in this forum, and as you can see, I have not been a registered member for very long, though I have been a regular reader for over six months (since I found this forum). I might as well admit it now - "this forum is the reason I am the owner of a TS 3650".

                          Though I don't spend a huge amount of time with woodworking, it has always been a hobby of mine. I owned a medium priced table saw (CI of course) over thirty years ago, which was more expensive than the TS 3650 I purchased a couple of weeks ago. I got quite a break and got mine for $484.92 out the door. I have used some very expensive Table Saws (cabinet models in High School shops after school hours, and in military wood shops, as I spent over twenty years as a service man), and I have to say without doubt - this is the sweetest cutting Table Saw that I have ever had the pleasure of using.

                          I've read probably all of your posts to date, so I don't think you are in the "Newby" category. You have had some wonderful responses to your thread so far.

                          I agree with all of them and their ideas to narrow down the problem. I feel sure that you have tested most of the remedies suggested, and I will not offer any new ones. Then, what the "H" am I doing making some response that can't help you? Well, maybe this will help. I think you have the best saw that you can buy for the money. I am totally confident that if your saw is properly set up, then there is some other problem. It could be something as simple as your feed rate. I did find that I had to feed just a tad faster (than I'm used to), with the TS 3650 to get a satin cut. I will make one suggestion, and probably get scorned by some of the senior members, but I am over 70 and have been using power equipment for well over 50 years and still have all ten of my fingers. Okay, here goes:

                          Try making a couple of cuts with the miter gauge and fence with the blade guard completely removed. I am guessing that you have done this before, so you know you have to be a little careful. Reading your problem with "tearout" at the back of your cut suggests that either your blade is not truly aligned or some other thing is influencing the blade. I know you have already checked this, but I ruined the stock blade on the very first test cut with the TS 3650. Problem: Rear trunion bolts loose which caused the blade to twist more than an eighth inch and the blade contacted the throat plate. Results: two small gouges in the throat plate and one tooth missing from the stock blade. Yes, HD did replace the blade with a TiTanium coated "gold" blade without question. That blade (Ridgid "full lifetime warranty"), seems to cut as well (but I don't think better) than any of my Freud blades.
                          In fact, I think this blade was made by Freud as it came in an identical pkg and was made in Italy.

                          Okay, you "safety buffs", have at me. I can take the heat.

                          In closing, I want to say that I am a fairly new registered member, but in all the forums that I have ever had the pleasure of reading or participating in - this is by far THE best. Very knowledgable - and very polite people. Not once have I read a nasty comment. That is a real pleasure to someone my age - you know how it is - the older you get - the more critical you get.

                          Don't give up on probably the best saw you have ever owned. I feel sure that you will find the problem and solve it. It is more likely something simple than something terrible (like having to return it). Joke Joke. At $1.54 pound, I think this is the best purchase I have ever made.

                          Take care,

                          Mick

                          Added (like a PS

                          I must add this even though it may be a little removed from the true intent of the thread.

                          After all my adjusting with the various things that need to be checked (like Blade alignment, Miter Guage, fence, etc) I did the following test as a small check of how well my adjustments were. Keep in mind that I do not have all the jigs and micro tools that you pros seem to have at your beck and call, and all my adjustments were made with a framing square and a small three inch by four inch replica of a framing square, plus my aging eyes and years of experience. That plus dozens of trial and error test cuts. haha.

                          I took a one foot square piece of 3/4" MDF, placed it against the rail (left side of blade) made a cut approximately half way through to the center, flipped the piece over, and completed the cut. Both cuts were made to the middle only. When checked, though I could see where the cuts began and ended, for the life of me, I could not "feel" a difference. Fair test? I don't know.

                          m

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

                            I appreciate the suggestions everyone above has made. Just to throw in a few more data points:

                            All my testing is being done by crosscutting a piece of mdf about 6" wide. Untill I get this to cut well, I see no point in wasting real lumber.
                            The splitter/guard is not even on the saw, although when I occasionally rip something I put it back on.

                            My throat plate was cupped .020", which I flattened to within .005"

                            Last night I tried 4 of my crosscut blades to try to compare them. I made a runout measurement first, then cut the mdf.
                            The 2 Freud thin kerfs were really bad, although they work well on the Ryobi.
                            The Tenryu full kerf did pretty good, but I could hear the rear teeth scraping as the mdf went past.
                            Surprisingly, a cheap Avenger 50 tooth full kerf combo blade gave good results. This is encouraging.

                            Since I can't find anything obviously wrong on the saw, I may spring for a Forrest WW blade, as Amazon has 20% off this month. This would be a last ditch attempt.

                            I can't return the saw, as it's 3 months old, the box is gone, and I'd have to disassemble it and take it up a flight of stairs. If it comes to that, I'll just sell it at a loss.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Speeding up the TS3650?

                              Buying another saw blade is a waste of money. That is not your problem. At least by design, the 3650 is far superior to the BT. I have used both saws extensively and know what I am talking about. If a saw blade cuts well on the BT it will cut far better on the 3650.

                              I don't want to offend, but recommend you re-evaluate your measurement techniques. The symptoms sound exactly like the arbor shaft is not absolutely perpendicular to the miter groove. That is the first adjustment that must be done absolutely right. Maybe you should abandon the dial indicator method and just use the feeler gauge technique you mentioned before.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X