Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Correcting blade heel when it's tilted? Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

    I took great care to get the blade parallel to the miter slot on my TS3650, using a dial indicator in a jig.
    I now find that when the blade is tilted to 45 degrees, the rear of the blade moves about .01" closer to the left miter slot than the front of the blade. (and yes, this does matter in the cuts I'm trying to make)

    Any ideas how to correct for this? I think on cabinet saws they shim the table...but this ain't one of those.

  • #2
    Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

    I haven't had the problem personally, but I recollect from another post that the solution was to loosen all the trunnion bolts and move the trunnion closer to center (so the micro adjust lever in the back is centered when the blade is vertical and parallel to the miter slot).

    But first, if you have a lot of sawdust build up in the curved slots that the assy rides in, it could also cause the problem. There is a slot in the front (which you have to remove the blade to get to to clean) and one in the back. Sometimes a chip will get in there and cause one end to bind.

    For the other it basically, it means going through the whole set-up adjustment scenario again. It seems that if the trunnion is too far to the left during the initial setup, even thought it can be gotten parallel to the miter slot when vertical, it causes a binding and a heel when at full tilt. If I remember, the person who had the problem had the whole trunnion assy too far to the left to begin with because they also couldn't get the 1/8" recommended clearance on the left of the blade with the stock insert. If your micro-adjust lever is all the way one way or the other, this may be the problem.

    Hopefully they will chime in with the details and verify if it needs to move left or right.

    On mine, I "centered" the trunnion during my "annual" (once every year, or two, or three, etc) maintenance check. Had a few things getting a little out of whack so redid the whole thing. My micro-adjust lever was cocked all the way to the right (viewed from the front) to begin with, but I honestly never checked the parallelism at 45 degrees. After the redo, I had it close to center, and I did check it at 45 with a dial indicator, and it was less than .002 out.

    Go
    Practicing at practical wood working

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

      I don't have the Ridgid tablesaw but I can tell you that in all other 'contractor saws' this problem is caused by the front-to-rear connecting rods being misaligned. These are the two rods (about 3/4" diameter) that connect the front trunnions to the rear trunnions. These rods not only have to be parallel but must be in the same plane. The quick way to check this is with a flat piece of something stiff and thin (a pane of glass is good for this). Lay the glass on the two bars/rods and it must touch all along the rods. If it does not then you must loosen the nuts at the ends of the rods and sorta twist them so that the plate lays flat on the bars/rods. Check this with the blade at 90 degrees and with the blade at 45 degrees. Once the rods are parallel and in the same plane then proceed to align the blade to the miter slot and to the fence.

      gator

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

        I've read of people shimming one corner of the trunnions...sorry I can't give more detail, but you might find somehting on the web.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

          Originally posted by gator View Post
          I don't have the Ridgid tablesaw but I can tell you that in all other 'contractor saws' this problem is caused by the front-to-rear connecting rods being misaligned. These are the two rods (about 3/4" diameter) that connect the front trunnions to the rear trunnions. These rods not only have to be parallel but must be in the same plane. The quick way to check this is with a flat piece of something stiff and thin (a pane of glass is good for this). Lay the glass on the two bars/rods and it must touch all along the rods. If it does not then you must loosen the nuts at the ends of the rods and sorta twist them so that the plate lays flat on the bars/rods. Check this with the blade at 90 degrees and with the blade at 45 degrees. Once the rods are parallel and in the same plane then proceed to align the blade to the miter slot and to the fence.

          gator
          The Ridgid is not made that way. Here's a pic:

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

            Originally posted by Gofor View Post
            I haven't had the problem personally, but I recollect from another post that the solution was to loosen all the trunnion bolts and move the trunnion closer to center (so the micro adjust lever in the back is centered when the blade is vertical and parallel to the miter slot).

            But first, if you have a lot of sawdust build up in the curved slots that the assy rides in, it could also cause the problem. There is a slot in the front (which you have to remove the blade to get to to clean) and one in the back. Sometimes a chip will get in there and cause one end to bind.

            For the other it basically, it means going through the whole set-up adjustment scenario again. It seems that if the trunnion is too far to the left during the initial setup, even thought it can be gotten parallel to the miter slot when vertical, it causes a binding and a heel when at full tilt. If I remember, the person who had the problem had the whole trunnion assy too far to the left to begin with because they also couldn't get the 1/8" recommended clearance on the left of the blade with the stock insert. If your micro-adjust lever is all the way one way or the other, this may be the problem.

            Hopefully they will chime in with the details and verify if it needs to move left or right.

            On mine, I "centered" the trunnion during my "annual" (once every year, or two, or three, etc) maintenance check. Had a few things getting a little out of whack so redid the whole thing. My micro-adjust lever was cocked all the way to the right (viewed from the front) to begin with, but I honestly never checked the parallelism at 45 degrees. After the redo, I had it close to center, and I did check it at 45 with a dial indicator, and it was less than .002 out.

            Go

            On mine the blade was exactly 1/8" from the edge of the slot on the insert.
            I loosened all the trunion bolts and shoved as far to the right as I could. I doubt if it moved even 1/32".
            Then went through the alignment procedure again, tilted the blade to 45 degrees, and it still measures about .008" off. Based on the picture in my previous post I don't think this is adjustable...it's determined by the cast cradle.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

              Sorry its taking so long to reply. Been too busy to get on line the past few days.

              First, you are right that loosening the trunnion screws does not allow much movement. Basically it is just the slop in the bolt holes. However, on mine it was enough to bring the micro-adjust lever from all the way to the left (looking fronm the back of the saw) to center. When I reran the blade up through my zero clearance insert, I doubt it had moved more tha a 64th. One other poster did this and somewhere in the process it fixed his problem, which is the same as yours.

              My thoughts are that its probably caused by the front or back binding or getting stopped from moving. As I look at my saw, I only see a few possibilities.
              1. The lock handle for the blade height can bind against the bottom of the table when the cradle pivots. (It can be repositioned by pushing it in and setting it where desired. On mine, I have to reposition to go full bevel and again when I set it back to vertical).
              2. Something in the front or rear curved slots of the trunnions that is causing the mechanism to bind. It could be a burr or wood chip, etc, and may be in the slot on the mechanism side (on the inside of the trunnions), or blocking the height lock rod (curved slots on the outside of the trunnions).
              3. The motor assy hitting something (outfeed table, etc)

              Sorry nothing has worked so far.

              Is it also out when only pivoted to 40 degrees? If so, that would indicate a burr on the inside curved slots. If not, it indicates something at the end of one of the slots.


              Go
              Practicing at practical wood working

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

                Gofor wrote: "2. Something in the front or rear curved slots of the trunnions that is causing the mechanism to bind. It could be a burr or wood chip, etc, and may be in the slot on the mechanism side (on the inside of the trunnions), or blocking the height lock rod (curved slots on the outside of the trunnions)."

                I find I have to check this area about once a week and clean the sawdust out of both the front and rear grooves that the trunnion rotates in. There is room for over-travel and the ends are not open so sawdust gets packed in there especially on the 45° end. Usually I check it each time I change blades and that is often enough.

                If you find you are having trouble reaching a full 45 or 90 position then this is the first thing to check in my TS troubleshooting notes.
                ---------------
                Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                ---------------
                “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                ---------
                "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                ---------
                sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

                  Originally posted by Gofor View Post
                  Sorry its taking so long to reply. Been too busy to get on line the past few days.



                  Is it also out when only pivoted to 40 degrees? If so, that would indicate a burr on the inside curved slots. If not, it indicates something at the end of one of the slots.


                  Go
                  It is out at most any angle. The heel gradually gets worse the further you go towards 45.

                  The problem for me is that as I feed the stock along the fence, the force generated due to this heel pulls the stock away from the fence. So I end up with a less-than-perfectly straight cut, and the waste side gets a lot of saw marks on it. So far I've been cutting everything twice...first at 1/16" oversize, then at the final dimension. Besides being a nuisance...(imagine having to cut all 24 bevelled edges twice on a 6 sided box)... that second cut blows a lot of sawdust onto the table top, and me.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

                    Back again. It sounds like you may have a manufacturing or assembly defect. For the heel to get worse (rear of the blade further to the left) as you change the angle indicates to me that the rear trunnion is significantly lower than the front. At 90 degrees, this would only affect the blade height, but the more you bevel, the more the rear of the blade will drop. Therefore the angle to the table in the rear will get tighter and with the lower rear blade, you will be measuring a little further out on the angle. This would also raise the risk of kickback from the waste side as it would be getting wedged tighter as the piece gets pushed through.
                    I looked at mine and found it difficult to get an accurate measurement from the table top to the inside of the curved slot that the arbor assenbly rides on. even with the blade fully vertical, you cannot get access to the lowest part of the curve. For a rough measurement, I took off the insert and using a combination square as a depth gauge, I compared the the depth of the top of the two trunnion castings from the table top surface. On mine the rear trunnion is about .006 lower than the front with the blade set vertically, but I am getting no heeling at 45 degrees. If you see a significant difference, than I would guess that is the root of the problem.

                    Hope this helps.

                    Go
                    Practicing at practical wood working

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

                      Originally posted by Gofor View Post
                      Back again. It sounds like you may have a manufacturing or assembly defect. For the heel to get worse (rear of the blade further to the left) as you change the angle indicates to me that the rear trunnion is significantly lower than the front. At 90 degrees, this would only affect the blade height, but the more you bevel, the more the rear of the blade will drop. Therefore the angle to the table in the rear will get tighter and with the lower rear blade, you will be measuring a little further out on the angle. This would also raise the risk of kickback from the waste side as it would be getting wedged tighter as the piece gets pushed through.
                      I looked at mine and found it difficult to get an accurate measurement from the table top to the inside of the curved slot that the arbor assenbly rides on. even with the blade fully vertical, you cannot get access to the lowest part of the curve. For a rough measurement, I took off the insert and using a combination square as a depth gauge, I compared the the depth of the top of the two trunnion castings from the table top surface. On mine the rear trunnion is about .006 lower than the front with the blade set vertically, but I am getting no heeling at 45 degrees. If you see a significant difference, than I would guess that is the root of the problem.

                      Hope this helps.

                      Go

                      Thanks for an explanation of how this could be occurring. I doubt I could make any accurate measurements of the trunnion depths...but I may try to find some type of shim material that I could place between the front trunion mounts and the table.

                      If your reasoning is correct, then this would lower the front to be more in line with the rear.

                      Thanks.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

                        Well, Gofor's explanation didn't seem to pan out, though it sounded quite plausible. My old Ryobi saw's riving knife came with a bunch of .01" shims for aligning it. The hole in them was the exact size of the trunion bolts on the TS3650. So I was able to insert them between the front trunion and table mounting points fairly easily.

                        Unfortunately, after multiple tedious attempts at aligning the blade at 0 degrees, then checking it at 45 degrees, with .01" and .02" shim heigths, I was never able to get much improvement in blade heel at 45 degrees.

                        However, there may yet be a happy ending. I have found that the saws bevel lock, which threads into the front trunion bracket, will pull the blade out of alignment by varying amounts, depending on how much I tighten it. With some experimeting I found if I tighten it completely, align the trunions perfectly at 0 degrees, then tilt the blade to 45, I can use the bevel lock to dial in the heel at that angle. Applying just modest pressure on the lock, I was able to get the 45 degree heel from .01", skewed leftward, down to .003" skewed leftward. It repeated several times, and only took a minute to check with a dial gauge. If these settings hold, I can probably live with it being this way.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

                          Unfortunately, known means of blade heel adjustment are generally unsatisfactory. Each trunnion is typically fastened to the bottom of the work surface by stationary bolts that extend through oversized or slotted bolt holes in the trunnion. This enables one trunnion to be moved laterally a small amount relative to the other trunnion to correct misalignment of the blade arbor relative to the guide groove in the work surface when necessary. Thus, with known table saws, if the cutting blade is not parallel with the guide groove the bolts that fasten one trunnion to the supporting table are loosened. The trunnion and the cradle that it supports are then be forced or pried to change the heel of the saw blade, often using crude means such as striking the trunnion with a hammer. TO READ THE ARTICLE IN DETAIL visit
                          http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/65...scription.html
                          jewelelegance
                          www.jewelelegance.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

                            I have found it helpful to loosen all the bolts and secure the trunnion to the saw table with a couple of clamps. Once the blade is ligned up I can tighten the bolts without the trunion moving. Before adopting this method I had a time lining the blade but have used this method for several years and works well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Correcting blade heel when it's tilted?

                              jbateman: Thank you for the feedback. Sorry my idea caused you a lot of work and did not solve the problem. What you found will be good info for others that have a similar problem. I did not realize the bevel lock mech could cause enough torque to pull the blade out of alignment. People like you who keep after a problem until it is solved are what helps us all.

                              Go
                              Practicing at practical wood working

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X