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  • TS3650 Blade alignment

    Ive had my 3650 set up for a couple of weeks now. Ive tried aligning the blade per the manuals instructions several times now. I think there might be some other issue giving me problems.

    In use, the front of the blade makes the cut as it should, but the teeth at the back of the blade still catch the wood on the exit.

    When I set a combination square in the miter slot and adjust the rule so that it just touches the side of the blade, then turn the blade by hand, the rule stays in contact with the blade for about 1/2 the revolution, then no contact for the other 1/2 of the revolution.

    Ive removed, inspected and cleaned the blade and washer to make sure that no filings or other materials are causing misalignment.

    Could the blade that shipped with the saw be warped? Any other ideas?

    Thanks
    Virg.

  • #2
    Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

    It's possible but you can take the blade out and check to see if it's flat easy enough. You can also get a cheap blade from HD or Lowes to see if it's really a blade problem or if there's something wrong with the arbor.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

      Thanks for the quick reply.
      I have some more data. I borrowed a guage from work and made some measurments.

      Firstly, measuring the same tooth at the front of the blade and then the rear of the blade, there is only 1/1000th of an inch difference.

      Then I set the guage on the side of the blade, just under the teeth, and rotated the blade by hand. This measurment varies by about 4/1000th of an inch.

      I then removed the blade and set the guage against the surface that the blade sits against (the arbor?) when it is tightened down. Turning the shaft by pushing the belt showed only about a half of 1000th of an inch of deviation.

      Its sounding more and more like a warped blade to me, though I wouldnt have thought that a 4 thou deviation would be this noticeable.

      Virg.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

        The miter gauge that comes with the saw is not a great one...it doesn't fit the slot very well. A blade with a lot of runout can tend to pull the stock to the right as you cut it, causing it to scrape the rear of the blade.
        To be honest, I've never used the stock blade. It looked like junk compared to the ones I already owned.
        If you want a pretty good general purpose blade to get started with, go to Holbren.com, select this blade http://www.holbren.com/product.php?p...4&cat=0&page=1 and enter BT310 in the coupon code at checkout for 10% off.

        Also, you might attach an auxiliary fence to the miter gauge, with some sandpaper glued on it, to help keep your wood from being pulled rightward. But a decent blade and near perfect alighment of the trunions will get rid of most of the problem.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

          Originally posted by thevirg View Post
          Ive had my 3650 set up for a couple of weeks now. Ive tried aligning the blade per the manuals instructions several times now. I think there might be some other issue giving me problems.

          In use, the front of the blade makes the cut as it should, but the teeth at the back of the blade still catch the wood on the exit.

          When I set a combination square in the miter slot and adjust the rule so that it just touches the side of the blade, then turn the blade by hand, the rule stays in contact with the blade for about 1/2 the revolution, then no contact for the other 1/2 of the revolution.

          Ive removed, inspected and cleaned the blade and washer to make sure that no filings or other materials are causing misalignment.

          Could the blade that shipped with the saw be warped? Any other ideas?

          Thanks
          Virg.
          I am going to assume this happens when you are using the fence.
          If your measurements are correct, a warped blade is not the problem.
          The two most likely culprits are the fence and/or the splitter.
          If the rear of the fence is towed in toward the blade, it is forcing the wood over into the rear teeth. Check that it is parallel to the blade.
          The most common problem is the splitter/blade guard assembly. It is very difficult to get properly aligned using when using a thin kerf blade, because the splitter is almost as wide as the blade. If the wood is not catching on the splitter when it first reaches it, the front is aligned okay. However, if the back of the splitter is canted out to either side of the blade, it will pull the wood sideways, and the rear teeth on the opposite side will catch the wood.
          With the saw unplugged, and the blade at maximum height, lay a straight edge at least 21" long, such as a carpenter's framing square, touching the full width of the blade and extending back past the back of the splitter. Raise or lower the blade so that the straight edge is not touching any teeth on the front or back. The straight edge should also not touch the splitter anywhere. Check both sides. If all is well, put a piece of 2 x 4 under the straight edge and do the same check.
          Note: if it appears that the splitter is as wide as the blade, then set the straight edge against a tooth at both the front and back, as the teeth stick out farther than the core. As long as the splitter is behind the tooth width you are okay.
          The splitter entire needs to be directly behind the blade, both front to back and top to bottom (at least as high as the thickest wood you will cut).
          The manual shows two adjustments for the splitter on pages 36 - 38 in the manual. The blade guard support screws are used to get it vertical. The 2 hex screws at the back of the splitter (manual calls it "spreader") are to move it left or right, and to get it straight in line with the blade. Tighten them slowly as they have a tendency to move it when they start getting snug. If yours is like mine was, you will not be able to get it over far enough to get the front and back both behind the blade at the same time. The third adjustment is the little allen screw on the shaft the assembly slides on and off of. (It is a metric size 3 or 4, but don't remember for certain and the manual does not mention it). If you loosen it, you can slide the rod slightly (about 1/8") to the left (looking from the back) to give more play in the side-to-side adjustment. Make sure you retighten it.
          All this aggravation, and the fact that sooner or later you will drop the spreader or bang it when taking it off and putting it on and knock it out of adjustment, is one reason I usually use a full kerf blade for most work. I am very happy with the performance from the Freud LU84R011. The full kerf Freud does not seem to bog it down, and gives a little more leeway on the spreader. I do also use the thin kerfs, but have had to realign the splitter several times over the past couple years due to the small tolerance they leave.

          Hope this helps.

          Go
          Practicing at practical wood working

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

            Thankyou jbateman for your tip on purchasing saw blades. I'll have to check it out.

            Thanks gofor for your detailed response.

            Unfortanetely, Im having this problem when using the fence, AND when using the miter. I currently dont have the guard/splitter installed. Im currently using the blade that shipped with the saw.

            As I rethink about my observation on the .0005" deviation on the surface where the saw blade attaches to, maybe that is the real problem. The .0005" near the center of the blade probably tranalates to .004 or .005 at the blade tips.

            Does that make sense?

            Thanks again
            Virg.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

              .0005 on the arbor should not cause the problem you describe. The tolerance on wood saws is in .001", not .0001" and in some areas .010". Maybe I am not understanding what you are describing. When you say "but the teeth at the back of the blade still catch the wood on the exit." do you mean as the end of the piece leaves the saw? If so, the problem is your outfeed table, which is slanted in reference to the saw table top.
              The measurements you gave are as good or better than I have run on my saw, and I don't have the problem you are describing. I have had similar problems with wood as I pushed longer pieces off the saw when I did not have my outfeed table level with the saw table. I usually use a couple saw horses with a board over them. I have to slide shims under either the board or saw horse to get it into the same plane as the saw table, or it will cause the piece to "walk" either right or left. It doesn't matter if it is the same height, as the piece will drop straight if its level. If the outfeed is slanted, tho, it will cause it to pull when the first end contacts the outfeed support.
              Trying a new blade is not a bad idea, as the stock blade is not the best, altho I have not found it as bad as others describe. But, my stock blade had .004" runout at the rim and it did not cause what you are experiencing. When you measured just under the teeth and rotated the blade, you were measuring the rim run out, which was .004" by your measurement.
              Guess I am not understanding what you are trying to tell me.

              Sorry

              Go
              Practicing at practical wood working

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

                Originally posted by Gofor View Post
                When you say "but the teeth at the back of the blade still catch the wood on the exit." do you mean as the end of the piece leaves the saw? If so, the problem is your outfeed table, which is slanted in reference to the saw table top.
                Go
                Sorry for not being very clear.
                Yes, I mean as the end of the piece leaves the saw.
                If I crosscut a 2" wide piece of material using the miter, the material catches on the saw teeth as it leaves the back of the saw blade. It hasnt even reached an outfeed table. Its not catching on the teeth deeply, but it is quite noticeable.

                Virg.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

                  I'm about out of ideas. Either the blade is in fact warped, your miter slots are not parallel, or it may be technique. When using the miter gauge (which I plan to upgrade to an Osborne sooner or later) I try to keep the pressure toward the same side of the miter slot thoughout the entire cut. The stock gauge is a bit sloppy, so I peened mine with a nail punch on the edges to tighten it up some.
                  However, try to get an accurate assessment of the miter slots. With the blade down below the table top, clamp a board to the miter gauge with the end of the board just even with the inside edge of the other miter slot. If you put a 3/4 board in the slot and push it to the center as you slide the reference board over to it and then clamp it, it will be even with the edge. Slide if the full length, but pay particular attention to the area adjacent to the saw blade. If there is a significant difference, you may want to consider returning the saw, because you will not be able to use both, and making a crosscut sled or any other jig that rides in both slots will be out of the question.
                  If you have aligned the blade to one miter slot, aligned the fence to the same miter slot, and the blade catches with both the fence and the miter guage using that same miter slot, then you have a warped blade, or the alignment process was not correct.
                  The other possibilities are that the extension wing is higher than the table in the rear, causing the piece to tilt as it passes the blade, and that would only happen with a piece wide enough to extend onto the extension; or the table top itself is severely warped (again, return the saw).
                  Sorry: Without being there, this is about all I can offer. I wish you luck, my friend.

                  Go
                  Practicing at practical wood working

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

                    Thanks again.

                    Ill do some more playing with it.
                    Maybe its just me. Im starting to think Im just imagining it.

                    Ive also submitted this to support to see what they have to say.

                    I'll try to keep you posted.

                    Virg.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

                      Perplexing problem. First, I would measure the miter slots carefully to make sure that they are parallel. Next, adjust the blade so that the distance from the blade to the miter slot on the right of the blade is identical (or as close as you can get it) front and rear. Next, check the measurement at three blade heights: low, middle and almost full up (but not at the stop - I never run my saw at the stop). If you see things change as you raise the blade, get in touch with Ridgid as it sounds like a warranty issue, depending on the numbers.

                      Assuming all is ok, measure to the miter slot on the other side. It should be the same, within a few thousandths.

                      Now, keep in mind that when cutting with the fence, the miter gage alignment doesn't have a thing to do with anything. What you need to do is make sure that your fence is oriented correctly with respect to the blade. Unlike the case with the miter slot, "correctly" means that the back of the blade needs to be ever-so-slightly further away from the fence than the front of the blade is. This means, in numbers, 0.010 to 0.032 inches. I don't know what the Ridgid manual says.... but if it says something different, ignore it! Theoretically if the fence and blade are exactly parallel it ought to be fine. But reality says that sometimes wood will curve just a tad as you cut it, and your beautiful jointed edge along the fence will curve away from the fence on the outfeed side toward the blade. It is a disaster if the wood pinches between blade and fence at the back of the blade.... serious danger of a kickback. Ouch, that hurts. Getting this proper "toe out" of the fence is NOT a blade adjustment... it is a fence adjustment.

                      It doesnt hurt anything if you set up with a touch of clearance at the back of the blade. The cut will be just as straight. If you dial in too much clearance (more than 0.032), you kind of chew up the cutoff part of your piece (that is, the piece not between fence and blade) I suppose this part could be thrown back at you if things got skewed enough, but it's never happened to me. Even a slight pinch against the fence, on the other hand, may not give you a kickback -- but it will give you black marks on your nice piece of wood, that are a bear to scrape off and will also fill the shop with the nasty stench of burning wood. Which is not the mark of champions!

                      Now the thing is, if you adjust for "toe out" on one side of the blade and then move your fence to the other side of the blade... well, your fence will now "toe in"... and thus pinch. Not so good. The solution? You should always use "auxilliary fences" rather than the aluminum surface of the fence. The fence has provisions for mounting an auxilliary fence. A nice piece of baltic birch ply, or (my favorite) a chunk of Delrin or UHMW polyethylene plastic works well When you do this, you can shim the aux fence on each side correctly to give you the slight toe out you need.

                      When cutting with the miter gage, I agree completely that the looseness of the gage in the slot can cause the problem you're having. I guess adjustable precision miter gages may help. My solution years ago was a 12" DeWalt radial arm saw, recently supplemented with a compoiund miter trim saw for portable usage... I know not everyone has the space or desire for two saws, but you can't believe how much faster things go when you have a radial arm dedicated for crosscuts. I could never go back to just a single saw, and have always felt that a tablesaw was a lousy crosscutting machine compared to the radial arm. You can also rip on the radial.... if you're brave and have little respect for life. The radial is best at crosscuts... the table saw is best at rip cuts.

                      Finally, if it were me having this problem, but I would NEVER recommend this to ANYONE, I would TEMPORARILY remove the safety guard and splitter and see if the problem persists. I have heard it expressed that blade guards and splitters and the like cause more accidents than they prevent, an opinion which I would NEVER promote.... but I have heard the viewpoint expressed. in any case, you should NEVER run your saw without a blade guard, even for a test cut and ESPECIALLY when you're having problems -- because injuries happen and tend to be irreversible. So all that is all just hypothetical.

                      Good luck. I would be interested to hear how the resolution works out.
                      Last edited by Andy_M; 11-27-2007, 12:27 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

                        By the way, the numbers for runout that you're measuring are about as good as things get with woodworking machines and blades and shouldn't be causing problems.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: TS3650 Blade alignment

                          had the same problem. they call it heeling and the remedy for it it on pgs 23&24 of the online manual. beware , the manual that came with yr saw may not have that info.Give it a try good luck

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