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  • #31
    Boy the errogance of some people really shines through on this forum. I haven't posted for a while but I just had to reply to this topic.
    First of all Norm in all likelyhood doesn't ever use a guard but of course he has to make the disclaimer before each show the same as John Sloats on "In the Workshop" program. This is for legal purposes only and not a personal opinion.
    Secondly, I have been using my table saws over the years without guards (30 years) and because of my degree of care, I have never had an accident and only one kickback that I learned from when I was 16. I am not saying that I am right and others are wrong - I just feel that I have a very clear plain of vision without the guard and quite frankly feel much safer without it.

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    • #32
      Northern Beaver----past "luck" is no assurance of future luck or lack of same. Want to argue about seatbelts too?

      As to problems adjusting the 3650 guard, I'll have to take a look at it next trip to the Borg. I wasn't aware they'd changed design from the old Emerson guard, which is one of the easiest to install/remove, of all the saws I've seen.

      It's very simple----the best guard is one that can't be removed (depending on the type of machine), but when you need to remove the guard, the best ones are those that are easy to use, otherwise, people will start making excuses.

      As to miter gauges---I use the Incra 1000 and the guard easily rides up on the fence---if you were using a tall fence (such as with box joints), you'd have to remove the guard anyway.
      Dave

      Comment


      • #33
        Vigs: I use the Incra 2000, and you talk about accurate!!

        I got it from Woodpreckers for $139.00. Best price I could find on the web. Here's a link:

        http://www.woodpeck.com/miter2000.html.

        Put an MDF Aux fence and put self adhesive sandpaper on the face. Now I really have to work to mess up a cut.

        Woodrat

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        • #34
          i guess a crosscut sled with a stop block would be accurate as well. here is my take on the blade guard. my wife is pissed at me because mine is still sealed in the cardboard box in the rafters in the basement. has one ever prevented someone from losing a finger, i am sure it has. has it ever resulted in one causing someone to lose a finger, i am sure it has. have they saved more fingers than they have lost, possibly. now keep in mind i am talking table saw specific. in my opinion, the blade guard is more of a hastle and a safety hinderance than a safety feature. you can not accurately line up your board. it is one more thing that you have to worry about your board binding/getting caught on..........to be continued
          \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

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          • #35
            you are more likely to get your hand close to the blade by moving the guard to make sure your alignment is right, etc. In my opinion, you are better off with a feather board and a push stick, along with a quality blade and fence. ALWAYS stand to the side so that if the piece does kick it will not hit you. ensure the elevation of the blade it not too high, and that the fence is square to the blade (a pain in the *** if that guard is in the way). Don't get me wrong, i am very safety concious. And those of you that are familiar with ORM or Operational Risk Management know that risks can not be totally eliminated, merely managed and controlled. This, in my opinion, is one of those risks. when something has the potential to do more harm than good, it needs to go, and in my opinion, the guard on the 3612 does just that!.........
            \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

            Comment


            • #36
              now on the flip side of that, i made the mistake of taking off the guard on my delta 10" compound miter saw. I felt the guard hindered my ability to accurately line up my work. well my cuts were a little more accurate, but not enough to warrant removing the guard. I noticed my hand getting inadvertantly too close to the blade spinning down which made me very uncomfortable. I went to reinstall the guard and i can not find the spring and other hardware i need to do so....i know i did not throw it away, just not sure where i put it. Thanks delta for including a parts list with the manual, I have ordered the replacement parts and will not use the saw again until the guard is back on properly! the accuracy solution....cut the miter just a hair too long and use a bevel gague to fine tune the cut.

              i know i am rambling, my point? saftey guards on power tools have their place. in my opinion, the safety guard on the contractor's table saw is in its original pkging never opened and never installed.
              \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

              Comment


              • #37
                Sorry to hear about your attitude towards guarding on power tools. Guards are there for a very good reason----people have learned, the hard way, that they do increase the safety of a tool. It's certainly your right not to use guards, but it's certainly unwise, not only for your own safety and possible future physical disability, but also for any children you may have who might mimic your example.

                As to seeing where the blade is, on either a CMS or table saw----you must not be aware that you can set your mark to the blade when the saw is off. You can set the fence, stop blocks, etc. to achieve the distance needed.
                Dave

                Comment


                • #38
                  Well Dave, I do agree with you on this point:

                  Guards are there for a very good reason----

                  Yup. Of course that's where the agreement part ends.

                  Lawyers and Law Suits. Way too many people want to blame someone else for their own mistakes. OEM blade gaurds on the TS are the cheap way out. They are not put on to protect the user, they are there to protect the maker of the saw, and because OSHA says so. If they were there to protect us, then they would be far more user freindly, and made to work a whole lot better.

                  Do you use a dado blade ever? Over across the big pond, they make TS so it won't take one. You see, they think it's a danger to the user. It is, if you don't watch what you're doing........
                  Support Our Troops!
                  www.mnpatriotguard.org
                  www.patriotguard.org

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    KM---there may be more agreement if you knew more of the facts---(BTW---should warn you my views are listed as lethal weapons ----wrote an article on safety history----been a safety professional for 18 yrs. )

                    Anyway, the guarding standards were written, for circular saw (what they used to call today's table saw) around 1914---long before laywers got into the act and long before most of the country even had workers' comp. ins. The ASME wrote the standards due to all too often repeated injuries on these and other power tools. These were voluntary standards, which sadly, much less than the majority of companies followed---that is until OSHA was created.

                    Now, OSHA doesn't affect the home user, but I really don't see how the facts change when you move a table saw from a commercial shop to someone's garage.

                    As to lawyers and mfgs. playing CYA----if that was the case, they're doing a darned poor job, at least on table saws. Guarding on CMSs and safety features on chain saws have been much more effectively designed. TS OEM guards leave a lot to be desired, but are still better than nothing.

                    I have mixed feelings about the Euro arbor shaft/dado issue. First, with improved routing systems, it's almost a moot point. The big danger with dados (and where most of the injuries occur) are in doing plunge cuts for blind dados. But, you could also make stupid cuts with a single blade for that matter---on the flip side---they have riving knives which I would love to have on our saws instead of stock splitters.

                    But as to blade guards protecting the users---you're totally wrong. I have NEVER heard of one amputation or serious hand damage to anyone using a TS with the guard in place. Yes, there are better guards, but they do serve a purpose.
                    Dave

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      First off i want to apologize as i in no way meant to disrespect anyone who installs and uses their tools with their guards. I also appreciate dave pointing out the possibility of children "mimmicing" my example.

                      It was a mistake to remove the guard from my miter saw and it will sit idle until i get the replacement parts i ordered (the ones i lost when i removed it) to reinstall it properly.

                      I have a 9 month old son and a 8 yr old nephew. When i am done in my shop i make it a habit to not only remove all of the yellow safety locks and lock them in my tool box, but also secure power to all of the machines. once we either rebuild our garage or move and i have a dedicated shop it will have a security box that will require a key in to run any of my tools.

                      The only tool i do not have the guard on that is used is my table saw and i certainly do not disrespect anyone who uses theirs. I just feel personally, that through the use of other safety items (feather boards, push/hold down sticks, etc) that the table saw can be used as safe if not more safely than with the guard attached. My son, when old enough, if he takes a liking to wood working, will be taught properly. The table saw guard will likely still be in the unopened box should he desire to use it. otherwise he will be taught the importance and proper use of the other safety methods. Blade Guards are a MUST on some tools, but there is more than one way to have the same level of safety and respect for the table saw. that was my only point. and again i thank dave for pointing out the "monkey see monkey do" scenario

                      Ed
                      \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I think you have to separate the functions of blade guard from the splitter. You can certainly use other means or change habits to keep you hands from getting close to the blade, possibly obviating the need for the blade guard.

                        But, I find it difficult to see how "alternate" methods can take the place of the splitter. I used a benchtop tablesaw with a poorly designed guard system (soon removed) for years and I never really got to experience the benefit of the splitter. I guess I just got used to it.

                        When I got the TS3650 about a year ago, I went ahead and installed the blade guard system. I did seem to "miss" the clarity of seeing directly from eyeball to blade, but I got used to that too.

                        It wasn't until I was doing a project that involved ripping some poorly dried poplar that I realized exactly what the splitter was doing. I could see the pieces curling into each other out the back of the saw, but it wasn't binding the blade. At first, I attributed this to just being a better blade, better saw, more power, etc. Then I took the guard off to do some dadoes, then back to some ripping - but I forgot to put the guard back on. Yeow! I could just feel that board wanting lift right off the table. I had experienced this before on the benchtop saw, but it usually just stalled the blade. I ended-up shutting of the saw mid cut. That's when it dawned on me just how useful the splitter can be.

                        I could possibly see the argument that the blade guard keep you from doing something "stupid", but I don't how any other device or technique can take the place of a splitter.

                        Jim

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Spaceblues'----You have an excellent practice of disabling your power tools when leaving the shop. Kids want to be like Mom and Dad and even besides that----tools can look so "interesting."

                          Jhill' makes a very important point. While the splitter provides another safety function, it is just as important to avoid binding and potential kickback, let alone accuracy in your work.

                          Yes, using push sticks, featherboards, jigs, sleds, etc. can all be used to keep your hands away from the blade, but in reality, there are many cuts where these items aren't effective. Besides, please tell me what keeps chunks of wood, loose knots, etc., from flying into your face? With no guard, your face is exactly where they will go----how do I know? Be happy to show you the scar----occurred when I was nibbling out a notch (so I couldn't use the guard) but what about cuts where you can use the guard? Better wear a face shield.

                          Spaceblues'---I too mean no disrespect---I'm only trying to help, but in honesty----I've noted you ask an aweful lot of beginner questions here---that's great--the way you learn. But, if your questions reflect a degree of inexperience, I'd hate to see you have to learn about table saw guards, the hard way----you already saw you'd made a mistake on the CMS---just want you to consider it.
                          Dave

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I started this sreetfight and I still have a thought on it. I believe in safety. I have a safe shop. I use guards and other safety devices including pushsticks,featherboards and safety glasses. I just question any safety device that puts you in an unsafe situation. The blade guard has done that for me. I think that with proper technique you can opperate the saw with little danger. This is my third table saw and this is the first saw that I have seen fit to change.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              So, based on what you say below, would it be OK if those that do choose to not use the provided safety features be excluded from disability, unemployment, and insurance benefits? I mean, why should my insurance go up to cover thte cost of your choice to not use provided safety equipment which overall has been proven to reduce the risk of injury (not prevent, that not a reasonable assumption).

                              Many auto insurance companies now will not pay medical benefits if it is proven or known that the driver or passengers were not wearing their seatbelt and you are injuried.

                              I use the guard on my 3650 whenever possible. It is a pain in the *** at times, it slows me down and it gets in the way or restricts my line of sight, but I cam still here to complain about it in one piece with all my fingers and eyeballs, etc.

                              The guard on the 3650 is basicly the same as the one on my old Craftsman 10" TS made back in the mid 80's, same easy thumbscrew install/remove setup. It's a shame that other manufacturers' guards are not as easy to install/remove.

                              If I was the investigator for the insurance company following a home or job related accident, one of the first questions I would have would be about the condition of the equipment and if all the required maintenance had been performed and all safety features were in place at the time of the so-called 'accident'. A root cause determination would certaintly lay a significant portion of the blame on failure to follow recommended and established safety protocols/procedures and a willful disregard for safety on the part of the operator.

                              Originally posted by K.M. Delano:
                              Well Dave, I do agree with you on this point:

                              Guards are there for a very good reason----

                              Yup. Of course that's where the agreement part ends.

                              Lawyers and Law Suits. Way too many people want to blame someone else for their own mistakes. OEM blade gaurds on the TS are the cheap way out. They are not put on to protect the user, they are there to protect the maker of the saw, and because OSHA says so. If they were there to protect us, then they would be far more user freindly, and made to work a whole lot better.

                              Do you use a dado blade ever? Over across the big pond, they make TS so it won't take one. You see, they think it's a danger to the user. It is, if you don't watch what you're doing........

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bob D.:
                                ........Many auto insurance companies now will not pay medical benefits if it is proven or known that the driver or passengers were not wearing their seatbelt and you are injuried.
                                Hmmmm...interesting concept, I wonder where that could take us? Any traffic law broken-claim denied, vehicle mainenance not current-claim denied, equipment failure-claim denied, being at the wrong place at the wrong time-claim denied and the list could go on and on and on and on................... You will of course be covered if you are sitting in your living room and the car is in the garage, but only if the windows are rolled up and the doors are locked.
                                Teach your kids about taxes..........eat 30 percent of their ice cream.

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