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  • High gloss piano finish for a newbee

    I'm new to this type of project. So bare with me. I'm building a stand for a fish tank and I want it to have the look of a high gloss black piano. So far I've sanded, used wood filler, sanded more, primed, and painted (brushed on) with the high gloss, oil based, Rustoleum enamel. I'm on my 3rd coat of paint & I sanded between coats of paint. I don't see any brush marks. However, the paint doesn't seem flat/even. I guess wavy is the best way to describe it. Do I have to do something t fix this or will my clear finish hide this. Also, I noticed that there were some micro-bubbles in my third coat. I'm assuming that all I need to do is sand these out? Do I need to sand the final coat of paint before adding the finish? I was thinking of using Minwax Clear Brushing Lacquer for the finish.
    Thanks
    Robert

  • #2
    Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

    You should have sprayed the paint and sanded between each coat, then probably a couple of clear coats to boot, sprayed also..... What could have happened with your work was, you didn't get the paint to spread out evenly, so it was possibly to thick and needed to be thinned down some...
    Great Link for a Construction Owner/Tradesmen, and just say Garager sent you....

    http://www.contractorspub.com

    A good climbing rope will last you 3 to 5 years, a bad climbing rope will last you a life time !!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

      I don't have a sprayer nor do I have experience with them. Can this be fixed?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

        A number of months ago VA Sandy submitted a thread re piano finish. I don't remember much about the thread except that there were a number of suggestions. A search for the thread may reveal some hints to help with your situation.

        -Tom

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

          Make sure you test that brushing laquer on some of the Rustoleum black coat first. If the Rustoleum is truly an enamel, the lacquer will bubble and lift it. Beings it is a brushed on oil-based coating, I doubt you will be able to use lacquer over it. You may have to go to a water soluble clear coating (i.e water-lox, etc).

          Check the rustoleum can and see if it labels toluene, mineral spirits, and/or xylene as one of the solvents. If so, I would be very leery about using lacquer over it. If the thinners are MEK (methyl-ethyl-ketone), MIK (methyl-isobutyl-ketone), or acetone without the others, you may be okay, but test it first.

          The Deft Clear Wood Finish spray cans you see at Lowe's, etc are actually lacquer finishes.

          For future ref, most of the super high gloss furniture finishes are lacquer or French polished shellac, although some are now acrylics (plastic). You can put oil-based over lacquer, but the thinners in the lacquer will soften and bubble an oil-based undercoat unless it is very old (fully oxidized) or baked on.

          Hope this helps

          Go

          PS if you decide to strip it down and refinish, get some lacquer-based sanding primer from an automotive store, and build it up until you can sand it smooth with a sanding block. Spray black lacquer over that and then clear coat (should all be available in spray cans).
          Last edited by Gofor; 09-13-2008, 09:12 PM.
          Practicing at practical wood working

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

            I was told on an other forum to wait a month or so before applying the Clear Brushing Lacquer. There's nothing on the can about solvents, but I found the MSDS on their website. I'll post it below as it's foreign to me. Is this Deft stuff like a spay paint lacquer? Does it lay down smooth and even and give a good shine?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

              *** Emergency Overview ***: Harmful if inhaled. May affect the brain or nervous system causing dizziness,
              headache or nausea. Harmful if swallowed. Causes eye irritation. Vapors irritating to eyes and respiratory tract.
              Combustible liquid and vapor.
              Effects Of Overexposure - Eye Contact: Causes eye irritation.
              Effects Of Overexposure - Skin Contact: May cause skin irritation.
              Effects Of Overexposure - Inhalation: High vapor concentrations are irritating to the eyes, nose, throat and lungs.
              May cause headaches and dizziness. Harmful if inhaled.
              Effects Of Overexposure - Ingestion: Aspiration hazard if swallowed; can enter lungs and cause damage.
              Substance may be harmful if swallowed.
              Effects Of Overexposure - Chronic Hazards: Reports have associated repeated and prolonged occupational
              overexposure to solvents with permanent brain and nervous system damage.
              Contains carbon black. Chronic inflammation, lung fibrosis, and lung tumors have been observed in some rats
              experimentally exposed for long periods of time to excessive concentrations of carbon black and several insoluble
              fine dust particles. Tumors have not been observed in other animal species (i.e., mouse and hampster) under
              similar circumstances and study conditions. Epidemiological studies of North American workers show no evidence
              of clinically significant adverse health effects due to occupational exposure to carbon black.
              Carbon black is listed as a Group 2B-"Possibly carcinogenic to humans" by IARC and is proposed to be listed as
              A4- "not classified as a human carcinogen" by the American Conference of Govermental Industrial Hygienists.
              Significant exposure is not anticipated during brush application or drying. Risk of overexposure depends on
              duration and level of exposure to dust from repeated sanding of surfaces or spray mist and the actual concentration
              Material Safety Data
              Sheet
              24 Hour Assistance:
              1-847-367-7700
              Rust-Oleum Corp.
              www.rustoleum.com
              Section 1 - Chemical Product / Company Information
              Product Name: STRUST QT 4PK GLOSS BLK Revision Date: 08/30/2006
              Identification
              Number:
              7779504
              Product Use/Class: Topcoat/Alkyd
              Supplier: Rust-Oleum Corporation
              11 Hawthorn Parkway
              Vernon Hills, IL 60061
              USA
              Manufacturer: Rust -Oleum Corporation
              11 Hawthorn Parkway
              Vernon Hills, IL 60061
              USA
              Preparer: Regulatory Department
              Section 2 - Composition / Information On Ingredients
              Chemical Name CAS Number Weight % Less ThanACGIH TLV-TWA ACGIH TLV-STEL OSHA PEL-TWA OSHA PEL-CEILING
              Stoddard Solvents 8052 -41-3 55.0 100 PPM N.E. 500 PPM N.E.
              Pigment Black 7 1333 -86-4 5.0 3.5 mg/m3 N.E. 3.5 mg/m3 N.E.
              Section 3 - Hazards Identification
              of carbon black in the formula.
              Primary Route(s) Of Entry: Skin Contact, Skin Absorption, Inhalation, Eye Contact
              First Aid - Eye Contact: Hold eyelids apart and flush with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes. Get medical
              attention.
              First Aid - Skin Contact: Wash with soap and water. Get medical attention if irritation develops or persists.
              First Aid - Inhalation: Remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give
              oxygen. Get immediate medical attention.
              First Aid - Ingestion: Aspiration hazard: Do not induce vomiting or give anything by mouth because this material
              can enter the lungs and cause severe lung damage. Get immediate medical attention.
              Extinguishing Media: Dry Chemical, Foam, Water Fog
              Unusual Fire And Explosion Hazards: Keep containers tightly closed.
              Special Firefighting Procedures: Evacuate area and fight fire from a safe distance. Water may be used to cool
              closed containers to prevent pressure buildup and possible autoignition or explosion.
              Steps To Be Taken If Material Is Released Or Spilled: Dispose of according to local, state (provincial) and federal
              regulations. Do not incinerate closed containers. Contain spilled liquid with sand or earth. DO NOT use combustible
              materials such as sawdust.
              Handling: Wash hands before eating. Wash thoroughly after handling. Avoid breathing vapor or mist. Avoid contact
              with eyes. Follow all MSDS/label precautions even after container is emptied because it may retain product
              residues.
              Storage: Keep away from heat, sparks, flame and sources of ignition. Keep containers tightly closed. Isolate from
              heat, electrical equipment, sparks and open flame. Keep container closed when not in use.
              Engineering Controls: Prevent build-up of vapors by opening all doors and windows to achieve cross -ventilation.
              Use process enclosures, local exhaust ventilation, or other engineering controls to control airborne levels below
              recommended exposure limits.
              Section 4 - First Aid Measures
              Section 5 - Fire Fighting Measures
              Flash Point: 104 F Lower Explosive Limit: 0.7 %
              (Setaflash) Upper Explosive Limit : 8.9 %
              Section 6 - Accidental Release Measures
              Section 7 - Handling And Storage
              Section 8 - Exposure Controls / Personal Protection
              Respiratory Protection: A NIOSH/MSHA approved air purifying respirator with an organic vapor cartridge or canister
              may be permissible under certain circumstances where airborne concentrations are expected to exceed exposure
              limits.
              Protection provided by air purifying respirators is limited. Use a positive pressure air supplied respirator if there is
              any potential for an uncontrolled release, exposure levels are not known, or any other circumstances where air
              purifying respirators may not provide adequate protection. A respiratory protection program that meets OSHA
              1910.134 and ANSI Z88.2 requirements must be followed whenever workplace conditions warrant a respirator's
              use.
              Skin Protection: Use impervious gloves to prevent skin contact and absorption of this material through the skin.
              Nitrile or Neoprene gloves may afford adequate skin protection.
              Eye Protection: Use safety eyewear designed to protect against splash of liquids.
              Other protective equipment: Refer to safety supervisor or industrial hygienist for further information regarding
              personal protective equipment and its application.
              Hygienic Practices: Wash thoroughly with soap and water before eating, drinking or smoking.
              (See section 16 for abbreviation legend)
              Conditions To Avoid: Avoid all possible sources of ignition.
              Incompatibility: Incompatible with strong oxidizing agents, strong acids and strong alkalies.
              Hazardous Decomposition: When heated to decomposition, it emits acrid smoke and irritating fumes. By open
              flame, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.
              Hazardous Polymerization: Will not occur under normal conditions.
              Stability: This product is stable under normal storage conditions.
              Section 9 - Physical And Chemical Properties
              Boiling Range: 212 - 415 F Vapor Density: Heavier than Air
              Odor: Solvent Like Odor Threshold: ND
              Appearance: Liquid Evaporation Rate: Slower than Ether
              Solubility in H2O: Slight
              Freeze Point: ND Specific Gravity: 0.892
              Vapor Pressure: ND PH: NE
              Physical State: Liquid
              Section 10 - Stability And Reactivity
              Section 11 - Toxicological Information
              Product LD50: ND Product LC50: ND
              Chemical Name LD50 LC50
              Stoddard Solvents N.D. N.D.
              Ecological Information: Product is a mixture of listed components.
              Disposal Information: Dispose of material in accordance to local, state and federal regulations and ordinances. Do
              not allow to enter storm drains or sewer systems.
              CERCLA - SARA Hazard Category
              This product has been reviewed according to the EPA `Hazard Categories' promulgated under Sections 311and
              312 of the Superfund Amendment and Reauthorization Act of 1986 (SARA Title III) and is considered, under
              applicable definitions, to meet the following categories:
              IMMEDIATE HEALTH HAZARD, CHRONIC HEALTH HAZARD, FIRE HAZARD
              SARA Section 313:
              Listed below are the substances (if any) contained in this product that are subject to the reporting requirements of
              Section 313 of Title III of the Superfund Amendment and Reauthorization Act of 1986 and 40 CFR part 372:
              Toxic Substances Control Act:
              Listed below are the substances (if any) contained in this product that are subject to the reporting requirements of
              TSCA 12(B) if exported from the United States:
              U.S. State Regulations: As follows -
              New Jersey Right-to-Know:
              The following materials are non-hazardous, but are among the top five components in this product.
              Pennsylvania Right-to-Know:
              Pigment Black 7 >8000 mg/kg (ORAL, RAT) N.D.
              Section 12 - Ecological Information
              Section 13 - Disposal Information
              Section 14 - Transportation Information
              DOT Proper Shipping Name: Paint Packing Group: III
              DOT Technical Name: --- Hazard Subclass: ---
              DOT Hazard Class: 3 Resp. Guide Page: 128
              DOT UN/NA Number: UN1263
              Section 15 - Regulatory Information
              Chemical Name CAS Number
              Alkyd Resin PROPRIETARY
              Organoclay MIXTURE
              The following non-hazardous ingredients are present in the product at greater than 3%.
              California Proposition 65:
              WARNING! This product contains a chemical(s) known by the State of California to cause cancer.
              WARNING! This product contains a chemical(s) known to the state of California to cause birth defects or other
              reproductive harm.
              International Regulations: As follows -
              CANADIAN WHMIS:
              This MSDS has been prepared in compliance with Controlled Product Regulations except for the use of the 16
              headings.
              CANADIAN WHMIS CLASS: B3 D2B
              VOLATILE ORGANIC COMPOUNDS, g/l: 488
              REASON FOR REVISION: Regulatory Update
              Legend: N.A. - Not Applicable, N.E. - Not Established, N.D. - Not Determined
              The information contained on this MSDS has been checked and should be accurate. However, it is the
              responsibility of the user to comply with all Federal, State, and Local laws and regulations.
              Chemical Name CAS Number
              Alkyd Resin PROPRIETARY
              Section 16 - Other Information
              HMIS Ratings:
              Health: 2* Flammability: 2 Reactivity: 0 Personal Protection: X

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

                This is the 1st part:


                Sheet
                24 Hour Assistance:
                1-847-367-7700
                Rust-Oleum Corp.
                www.rustoleum.com
                Section 1 - Chemical Product / Company Information
                Product Name: STRUST QT 4PK GLOSS BLK Revision Date: 08/30/2006
                Identification
                Number:
                7779504
                Product Use/Class: Topcoat/Alkyd
                Supplier: Rust-Oleum Corporation
                11 Hawthorn Parkway
                Vernon Hills, IL 60061
                USA
                Manufacturer: Rust -Oleum Corporation
                11 Hawthorn Parkway
                Vernon Hills, IL 60061
                USA
                Preparer: Regulatory Department
                Section 2 - Composition / Information On Ingredients
                Chemical Name CAS Number Weight % Less ThanACGIH TLV-TWA ACGIH TLV-STEL OSHA PEL-TWA OSHA PEL-CEILING
                Stoddard Solvents 8052 -41-3 55.0 100 PPM N.E. 500 PPM N.E.
                Pigment Black 7 1333 -86-4 5.0 3.5 mg/m3 N.E. 3.5 mg/m3 N.E.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

                  Based on the MSDS, it is an alkyd resin, which means it is an alkyd enamel that initially dries by solvent evaporation and then finishes drying by oxidation. The Stoddard solvents are a petroleum based solvent similar to naptha. It is a slow curing enamel and will likely take that 30 days for the top surface to fully cure. The problem is that the undercoats will take much longer to oxidize and fully cure, as the top seals off the oxygen. The solvents in a laquer will penetrate the top and be absorbed into the underneath, partially cured enamel, causing it to swell, and soften, which results in the top lifting off and bubbling up or wrinkling.

                  I have had little luck trying to apply lacquer over an alkyd enamel, even after a couple months drying time, unless it was baked on like a car finish. You can try it on a test piece, but even that is no guarantee it won't mess up in some spot. The brushing lacquer has less solvents than the spray, so may not be as bad, but I have not tried it. To help your chances, you may want to use a heat lamp, or set it relatively close to a halogen light or 100 watt bulb to try and get the temp up to about 100 degrees. This will speed up the cure.

                  As you have already applied the alkyd, I think you would have better luck with a water-based high gloss varnish. I do not know if it is available in spray can, and the water-based finishes are the worst to spray from regular spray equipment as they require a larger orifice and needle to properly atomize them (water molecules are larger than those of most solvents, and are harder to get into the fine mist needed for spraying). Many folks who have brushed them on have had good luck getting smooth finishes, tho, and they can be sanded between coats to get that super flat finish as well as polished out for that super gloss. One advantage to the water based varnish is that it doesn't yellow like oil based varnish, and will leave you with a true black look.

                  Even using the water-based, I would give the alkyd at least a couple weeks drying time, or it won't adhere well. Don't put the coats on too thick, or it may give you a cloudy finish (It looks white or milky in the can, but turns clear as it dries).

                  To answer your question, yes the Deft is a clear lacquer and goes on smooth and lays down nice. IMHO, it is not any better than a clear lacquer spray you could buy under a different brand name. It was mentioned as an example of what not to use over an oil-based paint. Because it is labeled as a wood finish, some people make the mistake of thinking it is an oil-based varnish instead of a lacquer.

                  Hope this helps.

                  Go
                  Practicing at practical wood working

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

                    Thanks for the help guys. I should have specified that I only used the oil based enamel on one of the doors. I didn't want to get too far into the project without the knowledge to see it trough properly. So, I'm gonna scrap it and start it over as it's only a 3/4" 18x30 piece of wood. I found an awesome thread on an other forum that gives great detail and pics on how to accomplish this. Here's a link to it for anyone else looking to do this type of finish:
                    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/print...5&pagenumber=1

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

                      Thanks, rlugo! I have been waiting on my customer to decide to go forward with the project he was talking about. I think I'll mention to him that this finish is going to take a good amount of time, so hopefully we'll just go forward now instead of waiting.

                      That's a great link you posted. Now I have to figure out what combination of base paint and clear coat to use.
                      I put it all back together better than before. There\'s lots of leftover parts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: High gloss piano finish for a newbee

                        I'll be sure to post pics as I go along. I don't have a sprayer. So, we'll see how good it comes out with spray cans .

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