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  • #16
    Re: 220 volts

    Originally posted by BHD View Post
    I believe the the starting torque is greater,
    In general, the torque will be more constant, because one phase is always "pushing" the motor. A single phase motor has spurts of on-off (very quickly, but still not constant) so that can make a difference.

    Also I've read 3-phase motors are simpler to build somehow, making them cheaper for a given horse power (and also longer lasting).

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    • #17
      Re: 220 volts

      OldTimer

      Unless you have 3 phase (utility supplied) power very near to your place, please be content with single phase power. Other than for pretty costly rotary phase converters the lower cost (non rotary <aka> static) don't put out real 3 phase power of any quality. They are made only so a 3 phase motor can run on single phase power. You must de-rate the motor's output power rating and being inefficient you also make lots of waste heat.

      Only if for some reason you need to run 5 HP or larger motors would it pay to think about bringing in 3 phase power (costly to do at best) or buying a rotary (motor-generator in special package) phase converter.

      As for re-connecting your saw motor (and others) to 220-240 Volts single phase, that's well worth the efforts and the same for running a private circuit to power them. As was stated if you did have a private short run 30 Amp (#10 or #8 copper wire) circuit at 110-125 Volts the saw would start up and run fine. The issue is that of Voltage drop due to high starting current. Going over to 220-250 Volts can really help and you don't need as heavy wiring so you save $$$ on copper.

      The bottom line is to have an electrician come over and check things out and make suggestions. Be sure to think about future machinery as well. You may as well get ready for it now rather than have to do things over in say 1-5 years from now.


      HINT TO ALL: If you have access to a good (pointer type) VOM such as a Simpson 260 or 270 or Triplett 630 series, set it to the 0 - 250 Volts AC range and connect it in parallel with the power cord (Think duplex receptacle) and measure the Voltage with the machine off. Then with a helper have someone watch the meter as the machine is started, running under no load and then running under load. Please log the readings.

      If during startup there is a drop to 90% or less of the no load Voltage or if running under load the Voltage is less than 95% of the no load Voltage you really need to beef up the circuit(s) powering your machinery.

      Note: Older motors may say 110/220 or 115/230 Volts. Today it's more like 120/240 for single phase motors. Slightly off is OK but don't run them on less than 95% or over 105% of the name plate Voltage. If you must, then watch loading and heating up of the motor. The same for other electrical devices. A good USA made well engineered motor will be OK on 90-110% of name plate Voltage, but the imports are *&^%$ mostly.
      Last edited by Woussko; 01-28-2009, 10:59 AM.

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      • #18
        Re: 220 volts

        Enough from all the "wanna be" Thomas Edisons. Going back to Oldtimers original question: I bought a 3660 several months ago. Yes, I converted it to 240. Why? Not because I expected it to be more powerful. I know better. I had earlier ran a dedicated 240 line to my shop to power my air compressor. Why not run my saw ( and also my Ridgid jointer) off 240, and lessen the burden on the 120 volt panel which powers my shop vac, lights, and really essential stuff, like my coffee pot.
        "non illegitimis carborundum"

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        • #19
          Re: 220 volts

          Thanks Laflaone and to all the other responders. Yes, the 3 phase was going way over my head. My breaker box is about twenty feet from the saw location and has 7 unused slots. I"m planning on running a dedicated line for the saw anyway so it was just a matter of 110 or 220.
          Worked on putting the saw together yesterday and thanks to this forum it went pretty smooth. A little bit of mumbleling while lining up the bolts on the extension wings with the saw in the up right position but, I gotter done.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: 220 volts

            Originally posted by Woussko View Post
            Unless you have 3 phase (utility supplied) power very near to your place, please be content with single phase power. Other than for pretty costly rotary phase converters the lower cost (non rotary <aka> static) don't put out real 3 phase power of any quality. They are made only so a 3 phase motor can run on single phase power. You must de-rate the motor's output power rating and being inefficient you also make lots of waste heat.
            a static converter is basically jsut the same as a starter winding, it is a timed switch and a set of capacitors that shift the electricity to the unused winding to start the motor, once the motor is started it is running on single phase on 2/3 of the windings of the motor,

            a rotary converter is basically a three phase motor with a static converter on it to start it, once the motor is started it will generate a true third phase by induction, in to the unpowered winding,

            if you have a saw or mill and not using to full capacity a static converter can be used, but only up to about 2/3 of it rated HP, if your using on a compressor or refrigeration use a rotary you need a full of a three phase as possible to keep things from smoking,

            one can set up a compressor or refrigeration to use a rotary with a timer to first start the converter and then about 15 seconds later the actually motor kicks in, for a shop manually start and stop the converter,
            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
            attributed to Samuel Johnson
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: 220 volts

              Originally posted by oldtimer View Post
              Thanks Laflaone and to all the other responders. Yes, the 3 phase was going way over my head. My breaker box is about twenty feet from the saw location and has 7 unused slots. I"m planning on running a dedicated line for the saw anyway so it was just a matter of 110 or 220.
              Worked on putting the saw together yesterday and thanks to this forum it went pretty smooth. A little bit of mumbleling while lining up the bolts on the extension wings with the saw in the up right position but, I gotter done.
              If I were doing it I would run a robust 110 circuit and be done with it. 220 is nice but if you ever move to another house or physically take the saw to another location having to have 220 is may just become another problem.
              Use a 20 amp breaker and 12 gauge wire with a receptacle rated at 20 amps and you will be flying high and making sawdust.

              If you insist on 220 then be smart and use a common dryer plug/receptacle so if you do go somewhere there might be a chance you can plug into a dry circuit to power your saw. Plus I would install a new longer line cord on the saw so you can move it around and still reach the 220 outlet. Again if you ever take the saw to another house/location the longer cord will turn out to be a blessing. 220v extension cords are not readily available.
              Rev Ed

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: 220 volts

                Originally posted by RevEd View Post

                If you insist on 220 then be smart and use a common dryer plug/receptacle so if you do go somewhere there might be a chance you can plug into a dry circuit to power your saw. Plus I would install a new longer line cord on the saw so you can move it around and still reach the 220 outlet. Again if you ever take the saw to another house/location the longer cord will turn out to be a blessing. 220v extension cords are not readily available.
                Sorry to disagree, but I'm not so sure that the dryer plug/receptacle thing is a smart choice. The reason I say this is that a regular dryer circuit will be rated and fused (breakered) for 30A. This is a ridiculous amount of current for an 1800W rated device, so if something failed on the saw, the breaker wouldn't trip until it's drawing 30A. Very dangerous.

                So, I hear you say, install a smaller breaker. Fine, except then you are deviating from what was intended. Additionally, even if you put a sub-rated breaker on the circuit, and then go and plug in at a neighbor's, that dryer circuit is a) going to be in the laundry and b) going to be a 30A circuit.

                Dryer circuits for dryers. Range circuits for ranges. 220V 20A circuits for 220V 20A devices.

                I believe the correct receptacle is a NEMA 6-20R, with the plug being a NEMA 6-20P.

                I should point out I'm not an electrician, but I am an engineer, and I'm a Brit to boot, so I didn't grow up with the electrical system here in the US. However, physics are physics, no matter what. Its like anything else in the shop. Right tool for the right job.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: 220 volts

                  I would jsut wire it with the appropriate plug and reciprocal and amp the breaker accordingly,

                  If you ever need to one can make a quick adapter to with the appropriate plugs and box and receptacle if ever needed, for a temporary situation,

                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  I agree with the above post, but the breaker is designed to protect the wiring in the walls, not the appliance.

                  But I do agree if one is using a 50 amp or a 30 amp breaker, and some thing does have problems the damage will be greater the larger the breaker that it is fed by in most situations, the motor should have it own internal over load protection, or the starter switch if the motor is not protected, more than likely there is a reset button on the motor.

                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  one other thing a saw or any heaver motor will work off a portable generator much easier on 220 volts than the 110 voltage ranges, as it will try to run off only 1/2 of the generator windings, not the complete windings of the generator,
                  Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                  attributed to Samuel Johnson
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: 220 volts

                    Originally posted by BHD View Post
                    I would jsut wire it with the appropriate plug and reciprocal and amp the breaker accordingly,

                    If you ever need to one can make a quick adapter to with the appropriate plugs and box and receptacle if ever needed, for a temporary situation,

                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    I agree with the above post, but the breaker is designed to protect the wiring in the walls, not the appliance.

                    But I do agree if one is using a 50 amp or a 30 amp breaker, and some thing does have problems the damage will be greater the larger the breaker that it is fed by in most situations, the motor should have it own internal over load protection, or the starter switch if the motor is not protected, more than likely there is a reset button on the motor.

                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    one other thing a saw or any heaver motor will work off a portable generator much easier on 220 volts than the 110 voltage ranges, as it will try to run off only 1/2 of the generator windings, not the complete windings of the generator,
                    Having #10-30 amp wire and a 20 amp breaker would be OK. In fact if you had a TS outside and needed an extra long extension you would realize less voltage drop than with smaller #12-20 amp wire. Other than that their is no difference except with cost and maybe additional adapters.

                    Buck

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                    • #25
                      Re: 220 volts

                      Originally posted by BuckB View Post
                      Having #10-30 amp wire and a 20 amp breaker would be OK. In fact if you had a TS outside and needed an extra long extension you would realize less voltage drop than with smaller #12-20 amp wire. Other than that their is no difference except with cost and maybe additional adapters.

                      Buck
                      Years ago I made up two adapter cords with flat prong 220v male end and one eash female dryer and stove ends, then a 220v dedicated extension cord (#10 or #12 AWG wire). Then I can use my saw anywhere within reach of a clothes dryer or electric range if needed.
                      Cheers

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: 220 volts

                        I have had my 3660 3 months. Really like it. Changed it to 220 while assembling it. I have a dedicated 220 line run to my shop, and the only thing that was on it was my compressor. I did not expect more power. What I did expect, and got, was no drawdown of the 110 which powers shopvac, lights, etc. I also switched over my Ridgid jointer to 220.
                        "non illegitimis carborundum"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: 220 volts

                          Roadster 280's description is acurate. Also, it is easier on the motor when its run on 240v and in the long run it should last longer than it it is run on 120v. That being said, this probably would only come into effect if you were to use your saw everyday, as the motor should last a very long time on 120v. There is a safety factor as well. When the saw blade doesn't stall/slow down, there is less chance of kickback.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: 220 volts

                            An other advantage is if you have to use an extension cord at some time, it won't need to be as a big a gage if you are using 220 volts opose to 120 volts.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: 220 volts

                              I've had my 3660 for several months now, works just fine.
                              I've recently moved to a bigger shop space, totally dedicated to woodworking.

                              heres the catch - NO electricity in the shop. no problem just needs to be installed.
                              only problem is throwing enough money at it.

                              Ive been kickin the Idea around to convert my 3660 over to 220/240 ? from 110.

                              I dont own just rent, the home owner says I can do what I want
                              (I will be getting a reduced rent for doing this)

                              so I will eventually be moveing - some day ?
                              so - - I probably would have to convert my saw back to 110 whenever Id have to move ..... again! (hopefully not for several years.)

                              Im planning on running 100 amps under ground (about 70 feet total)
                              to my shop. Im not an electrician but , my brother is.
                              so running a couple 240 circuits one for the table saw and one for a bandsaw, each on its own leg, would just be more wire - more parts - more labor - more cost from my pocket.

                              SO ,,, after reading this entire thread , Im thinking now on NOT converting
                              "anything" over to 240 volts.
                              Because , like has been mentioned if I decide to use my saws anywhere else I wont be able to.

                              I did a search for a wireing diagram for the motors , cant find one.
                              yes Ive still got the book, no biggy.

                              anyway this thread has been helpfull for me , thanks guys !

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