Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

    I guess you were not aware that one needs a good meal before starting out on that kind of job, and I was suggesting that he get the proper nutrition and vitamins and minerals that one needs to be in proper physical condition before attempting such work, and a properly cooked and served Brisket is a excellent start.

    but while were on the subject there is not much better than a good slow smoked BBQ brisket,

    but honestly I an glad you enjoyed my miss spelling, but I do like Brisket even better than biscuits or even biscuit cutters,
    the truth be know I was not watching the spell checker suggestions close enough,

    any way what I was suggesting on the wood working side of life, was Biscuits, and I have added pictures if any one still is not clear on what my suggestion was,
    Attached Files
    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
    attributed to Samuel Johnson
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

      Now I get it but thanks for the brisket picture, even went to Wikipedia to look up woodworking terms but couldn't find anything on briskets.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

        Wood glue will be plenty strong for joining the boards together. As mentioned, Titebond III is good, the color when dry is a decent match to red oak, and the "III" is water resistant, which is nice on a table. But any of the Titebonds, or Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue (the yellow stuff) will be fine, as would Gorilla Glue - but that stuff can be a mess to use. Couple of things to mention, though:

        (1) Make sure your boards are jointed. You don't need a jointer, you can use a good blade on a tablesaw. You just want to make sure that the boards aren't warped and fit together well.

        (2) Use LOTS of clamps, but don't over-tighten!!! It's easy to squeeze out too much glue and have a glue-starved joint. Then in a year or two you'll be able to feel the joint with your fingernail right through the finish as it opens slightly... not so good! You just want to the clamps to draw the joint together and give moderate pressure. You don't need to squeeze the heck out of the glue-up.

        (3) I would go with biscuits for alignment. Splines are fast, but as mentioned, you then have the end to deal with.

        Bad news is no matter what, you will be doing a little scraping or planing (or belt sanding, if you're brave) after all the gluing is said and done.

        (4) 7" is a wide board in oak. If you need this for the look you're after, ok... but narrower boards are much less likely to cup on a tabletop in a year or two. I seriously try to avoid boards this wide for oak tabletops, as the cupping can be severe.

        (5) If not using quarter-sawn stock, alternate the cupping pattern on the end grain. Again, very important.

        (6) If you use a cross grain end cap.... try not to! The cross grain seasonal movement in oak will be a disaster. The main table top will move as much as 1/4 inch, so if you design a glued-on end cap, the end caps the glue WILL fail. If you must use an end cap, you need a floating joint there. There have been a lot of sketches of how to do this in Fine Woodworking or Woodsmith over the years.

        I pretty much got away from cross grain end caps for this reason. Even with floating joints, I just dont like the lip that develops. Anymore, I spend a little time and sand the endgrain until it's perfectly clear, finishing up with 400 grit paper. Looks nice when you're done. I use a quarter sheet orbital to speed up the process.... it's a painfully long process to do it by hand.

        (7) Make sure you finish both sides of the table when you're done... exactly the same. I like the look of oak, but stability is not it's forte.

        Good luck,

        Andy

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

          If your main concern is flush then buy a standard glue joint router bit

          http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-router...04609_24059+73

          I agree with Andy M stay away from the end cap and I would split the 7" boards and then glue them up. you will end up with a more stable project in the long run. If you buy the router bit try a couple test runs with some scraps. You have to use feather boards to keep the boards tight and down and they actually work real well. It does not eliminate the need for cauls as this is a large glue up and you will need to keep it flat. The router bit meathod helps to line up the boards and increases the glue area.
          Last edited by Faboo; 03-13-2009, 11:33 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

            58" wide...5' long.....that is a pretty impressive glue up! You will need a boatload of clamps! Unless you are using biscuits or dowels for alignment, it does seem that gluing/clamping one joint at a time will be easier to deal with.

            As for strength......watch Antiques Roadshow! Plenty of furniture with glued up boards which are 300 years old and still going strong!

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

              Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
              Wood glue will be plenty strong for joining the boards together. As mentioned, Titebond III is good, the color when dry is a decent match to red oak, and the "III" is water resistant, which is nice on a table. But any of the Titebonds, or Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue (the yellow stuff) will be fine, as would Gorilla Glue - but that stuff can be a mess to use. Couple of things to mention, though:

              (1) Make sure your boards are jointed. You don't need a jointer, you can use a good blade on a tablesaw. You just want to make sure that the boards aren't warped and fit together well.

              (2) Use LOTS of clamps, but don't over-tighten!!! It's easy to squeeze out too much glue and have a glue-starved joint. Then in a year or two you'll be able to feel the joint with your fingernail right through the finish as it opens slightly... not so good! You just want to the clamps to draw the joint together and give moderate pressure. You don't need to squeeze the heck out of the glue-up.

              (3) I would go with biscuits for alignment. Splines are fast, but as mentioned, you then have the end to deal with.

              Bad news is no matter what, you will be doing a little scraping or planing (or belt sanding, if you're brave) after all the gluing is said and done.

              (4) 7" is a wide board in oak. If you need this for the look you're after, ok... but narrower boards are much less likely to cup on a tabletop in a year or two. I seriously try to avoid boards this wide for oak tabletops, as the cupping can be severe.

              (5) If not using quarter-sawn stock, alternate the cupping pattern on the end grain. Again, very important.

              (6) If you use a cross grain end cap.... try not to! The cross grain seasonal movement in oak will be a disaster. The main table top will move as much as 1/4 inch, so if you design a glued-on end cap, the end caps the glue WILL fail. If you must use an end cap, you need a floating joint there. There have been a lot of sketches of how to do this in Fine Woodworking or Woodsmith over the years.

              I pretty much got away from cross grain end caps for this reason. Even with floating joints, I just dont like the lip that develops. Anymore, I spend a little time and sand the endgrain until it's perfectly clear, finishing up with 400 grit paper. Looks nice when you're done. I use a quarter sheet orbital to speed up the process.... it's a painfully long process to do it by hand.

              (7) Make sure you finish both sides of the table when you're done... exactly the same. I like the look of oak, but stability is not it's forte.

              Good luck,

              Andy

              Wow, I've never learned so much on any given topic reading one single post. It all makes perfect sense to me. My hat's off for Andy this time around, though I must admit there are several "runners up" in this thread too

              Dan

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

                Andy, are you suggesting not to put anything over the end grain of the boards but rather just finish them off as smootly as possible? I originally had planned on splining a 3" breadboard on either end to cover the end grain. I was cocerned that there might be some splitting at the end. I haven't really worked with oak before so I'll trust your suggestions including Faboo's about splitting my 7" boards in half and alternating each before dowelling and gluing them back together.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

                  I may have missed this but I didn't recall anyone mentioning that you'll save yourself a whole lot of grief if your boards are properly milled before you start. Lots of great suggestions and tips here for sure, but if you don't mill your stock properly before you start, you're asking for headaches....

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

                    >> "Wow, I've never learned so much on any given topic reading one single post."

                    Mighty fine compliment, Dan. Glad you found my suggestions useful, and thanks for the encouragement!

                    >> "Andy, are you suggesting not to put anything over the end grain of the boards but rather just finish them off as smootly as possible?"

                    Yes, that's exactly it. The problem is that when the amount of moisture in the air increases, the oak will absorb the water and will expand across the board (width dimension and thickness dimension, although the thickness dimension is much, much less of a problem). Because of the cellular configuration of wood, the length dimension changes so little with humidity changes that it can be safely ignored. So, across your table, you will see a HUGE expansion and contraction with the seasons. If you decide to put an end cap on the table, the cap, with its grain running 90 degrees to the main table, won't track the movement at all.... so unless you design a floating cap (as I mentioned, how to do this has been beaten to death in Fine Woodworking and other such pubications), the main table boards will expand in width and literally destroy the joint to the end cap. Not so good. This is not theoretical... in this case, that's the voice of experience speaking. BTW, that's the reason raised panel doors are built with the panel "floating" in the door frame. If the panel were tightly fitted to the frame and glued in, the door would tear itself apart in the first year.

                    You get this effect more or less with any wood - although the degree of seasonal expansion/contraction depends on the species. I've found red oak to be nice looking but really bad in terms of stability.

                    Even if you decide to try a floating joint, I have to say that personally I just don't like end caps. The problem is that, especially on a wide glue-up like your tabletop, you'll make the cap fit beautifully in your shop but three months later it will look like it doesn't fit at all! I mentioned that you might see 1/4 inch of dimensional change with the oak but with a wide tabletop, you could easily see MORE if you live in a place with hot humid summers and relatively cool/cold and low relative humidity in winter.

                    I know many people don't like the look of end grain, but personally I find it to be quite attractive as long as you sand it until it gets "clear". Try it on one board.... I bet you'll agree that with a little patience you can get a great look!

                    >> "I originally had planned on splining a 3" breadboard on either end to cover the end grain. I was cocerned that there might be some splitting at the end."

                    I agree that red oak can be pretty splintery. But I haven't had any problems with the end splitting as long as it's good stock. I never use red oak without cutting at least 6-8 inches off the ends of the board (prone to splitting) and I try very hard to avoid pith lines (dark lines running in the grain direction) because these tend to end up as splits.

                    You can help your cause by selecting the edge detail appropriately. With red oak, I'll often opt for a blunt edge detail rather than a fine one... in other words, I might finish my tabletop with a big fat bullnose rather than a Roman Ogee. The sharper edge details are splinters just waiting to happen... but a nice blunt bullnose is pretty resistant to any splitting or splintering... and, if it's on the endgrain, it's much easier to sand to "clear".

                    Hope it helps! Good luck,

                    Andy

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

                      How would you go about sanding a profile (say, an ogee) on end grain? I made a dresser over the winter and, now that the weather is nicer, I'd like to go ahead and finish it but I don't know how to get the end grain sanded... It's too late to change to a simpler profile (unless I just replace the top)! Thanks!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

                        >> "How would you go about sanding a profile (say, an ogee) on end grain?"

                        It can be a nightmare, especially in hard to sand woods like oak. If stuck with a profile like an ogee, the best thing I've found is sanding sponges for the curved part and home made sanding blocks (glue paper to thin off-cuts of maple). The blocks work to keep the edges crisp, which is a problem with the sanding sponges.

                        One time I made a "negative" of the edge detail out of bondo to which I glued sandpaper strips with contact cement. It was ok.... but too much work making the thing and it wasn't very durable. As I said, I tried that "once".

                        If the profile is big enough, you might want to try a curved scraper. Sometimes a scraper will make fast work of end grain, but for some reason on other pieces it is worthless. I'm a big fan of scraping (love those little curls of wood!) so I at least give a few strokes with a scraper in just about every situation to see if it will help.

                        I'm sure others have more clever solutions to this question than I.

                        Good luck!

                        Andy
                        Last edited by Andy_M; 04-01-2009, 01:35 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

                          Here is a link to a very nice table project. Step by step and a good amount of information. The author also shows how he dealt with attaching the breadboard.
                          In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

                            Darius,
                            That is a great link, that is exactly how to install a bread board. I have never had any issues with structural failure using the technique illustrated in that link. I can think of a couple of techniques for installing a bread board on different applications; but for a dinner table that is the way to go.

                            tgomez

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: How best to edge glue 3/4" oak boards

                              Originally posted by darius View Post
                              Here is a link to a very nice table project. Step by step and a good amount of information. The author also shows how he dealt with attaching the breadboard.
                              One beautiful, beautiful table, and from following all of the steps plenty of hours in the making not to mention a lot of nice tools which unfortunately I don't have but I'll have to persevere and see how my table works out.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X