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New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

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  • New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

    Hi all,
    Great forum! I just got a 3650 on clearance from HD, and the assembly process was made much smoother because of the excellent info here.

    I still can't get the thing up and running because of what I think is a motor problem. Here's what I sent to the online customer assistance. Does this ring any bells for anyone?

    =======================

    I am having trouble with my newly assembled table saw. It trips the breaker of its circuit very soon (5 secs or so) after being turned on.

    I just put the saw together--it has not worked properly.

    This happens with the belt on or off the motor. Before tripping the breaker, the pulley on the motor spins at an extremely slow speed (120 rpms or so?).

    I have checked the wiring on the saw, and it seems to be correctly wired for 120 v.

    I am using an extension cord, but it is very heavy gauge. I have tried two different circuits, both 120 v, 20A, wired with 12 gauge wire. These same circuits support a washer and dryer with no problem. (when I try to use the saw, nothing else on the circuit is being used.)

    One final point: the thermal overload protector seems to be in an "out" position. That is, it does not click into position. Perhaps this is its normal, un-tripped state.

  • #2
    Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

    What else is on the circuit and how big is the circuit? If possible you should run the saw on it's own separate circuit.

    Kirk

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

      Is there any way you can try it on a different circuit? Try and isolate the problem to the saw or the circuit. You could dismount the motor assy and take it elsewhere to try.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

        Thanks for the responses guys.

        When tested, nothing else is on the circuit.

        I've tried two circuits, which I wired myself for a washer and dryer. 20A. I believe I used 12 gauge wire, 2-conductor (+ ground) romex.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

          Can you move the saw closer just to try it with out the extension cord?

          Recheck the wiring for 120 volts

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

            Hmm, sounds like the circuit is not the culprit if it's running other heavy load stuff ok. If the motor trips other circuits when plugged in there, sounds like it could be a suspect motor.

            One last thing - is it tripping a current breaker or a GFCI? They work completely differently, and would indicate possibly very different faults.

            Mine was on a 120V circuit shared with all manner of other stuff (fridge, lights etc), and would still start up and make light duty cuts before it tripped even a 15A breaker, even with a shopvac running too, never mind a 20A cct.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

              Try this and do be careful. Wire up a receptacle in a handy (surface) box with a 12-3 SO or SJ power cord but wire nut the ground wire. Then plug your saw into that receptacle and plug in the power cord into one of the receptacles you had been using. Does the saw start up now? If yes, you have a ground fault problem and need to unplug your saw and run to tests using an Ohmmeter from the motor frame to the wires in the connection box but with the incoming power wires disconnected. If you can't find trouble there check the same for the saw wiring including it's power cord.

              I bet the problem is a bad motor starting capacitor or switch. It could also be the motor isn't wired correctly so please check it out carefully.

              Does the motor make a rather loud GRRRRR sound when it attempts to start?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

                Thanks again for all the ideas. I have no solution, but I have some more "data."

                1. I checked the voltage with a multimeter -- a nice clean 120.5 v.ac

                2. The breaker is a regular current breaker, not a GFCI

                3. The circuit is indeed 12 guage romex.

                4. I wouldn't say the motor makes a loud "grrrr," but it does make a hum, unless it trips the breaker immediately, which sometimes happens.

                5. I tried to check the wiring in the saw's junction box against the 120 v schematic in the manual, I even removed the wire nuts. Everything looked kosher to me.

                6. I moved the saw close enough to skip the extension cord. (The cord was a Ridgid 50 ft. 12 gauge cord, rated at 15A.) I actually got the saw to start! But only without the belt linking the motor and the saw. once I hooked up the belt, I still tripped the breaker.

                7. Finally, something that seems strange to me, but I don't know jack about motors. I measured the resistance between the prongs of the saw's plug when it was unplugged with the switch on. No obvious shorts to ground, but, there was basically a short (only a few ohms) between the main lines (i.e., the blades that connect to the black and white wires.) does this mean there's really a short, or is that the way all motors work?

                Does any of this mean anything to anyone?
                Last edited by MDunne; 03-17-2009, 09:45 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

                  Sorry, but it's how it is supposed to be, a low impedance between the two current carrying conductors. The lower the impedance there, the more efficient the power transfer from the power station. Almost a dead short essentially; though the impedance presented by the windings of the motor should be the rated impedance when connected to the appropriate supply.

                  Now you say a few ohms. That surprises me. I would have expected around 1-1.5 ohms. Maybe that's the issue.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

                    Originally posted by Roadster280 View Post

                    Now you say a few ohms. That surprises me. I would have expected around 1-1.5 ohms. Maybe that's the issue.
                    Good call Roadster. After more careful measurement, I found it to be .9 ohms. I guess the primary (don't know if that's the right term in a motor) is just a big old coil of wire -- no impedance when it's not in use except the straight resistance of the wire.

                    See, problems are how we learn, eh?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

                      MDune

                      Do you by any chance have a VOM type meter there like a Simpson 260 or Triplett 630? (Hint: If you know someone into HAM radio I bet he/she has one.) If yes, you may want to try some simple checks of the capacitor(s) in the meter. I'll post more info if you have such a meter. A DMM (digital) isn't going to work for this test.

                      With everything you've posted, I really think you may have a bad motor starting capacitor. The good thing is they don't cost much and are very easy (normally anyway) to replace.

                      The blue motor has both a starting and running capacitor. The black motor has just a starting capacitor with an arrow pointing to it. You remove the protective can and the capacitor is inside. They are plastic cylinder shape with 2 quick connect terminals on one end. You'll see some numbers and you need a pretty close match. WW Grainger has lots of them, but they aren't all that easy to deal with unless you have an account setup. There are places in all major cities that rebuild motors that should have a good stock and places that sell repair parts for major appliances such as Trible's have some stock.
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Woussko; 03-18-2009, 12:20 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

                        Originally posted by Woussko View Post
                        Do you by any chance have a VOM type meter there like a Simpson 260 or Triplett 630?
                        No, unfortunately not. I have a multimeter from my days building guitar tube amps, but no VOM.

                        Originally posted by Woussko View Post
                        With everything you've posted, I really think you may have a bad motor starting capacitor.
                        That certainly makes sense. I'll wait to see what Ridgid says about replacement. I'd be happy to install a new capacitor myself, or I'd be willing to bring the motor in for an exchange. I hope they move quickly though...I'm itchin' to try this thing out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

                          I would suspect that the centrifugal switch is open or has dirt in the contacts. This will disconnect the starting capacitor and the motor will hum but not turn. The capacitor causes a phase shift into the start winding to start the armature rotating. After the motor is rotating sufficiently, the centrifugal switch opens and disconnects the capacitor and start winding, their job is completed. The motor runs on the main windings.

                          Remove the belt guard and take the belt off of the motor so the blade cannot spin. Facing the pulley, wind a piece of strong cord around the motor pulley in a clockwise direction, about 10 turns should do it. Pull the cord to spin the motor shaft and when the cord is all off of the pulley AND THE MOTOR IS TURNING quickly turn on the power to the motor. If it starts up, the centrifugal switch and start up capacitor should be checked out.

                          CAUTION, CAUTION

                          MAKE SURE ALL OF THE CORD IS OFF OF THE PULLEY BEFORE STARTING THE MOTOR BECAUSE IF THE MOTOR STARTS IT WILL WIND UP THE CORD AND YOUR HAND. Practice a few times with the cord without powering up the motor.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

                            Thanks Billmoy.

                            Already, the motor has started a few times, when the belt is off. however, it's slow to start and the belt seems to impose little additional burden (I can turn it freely with my hand.)

                            Do you still think it could be the centrifugal switch?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: New TS3650 trips breaker, motor problem?

                              If you have access to an amp meter and know how to use it you could check to see how much of a current draw you have. Start up amperage will be much higher than the motor's rated running amperage. I'm not familiar with that particular saw but the start up amperage on mine is about 35 amps and quickly drops down to the running amperage of 12 amps.
                              Last edited by killavolt; 03-18-2009, 04:27 PM.

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