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  • #16
    Re: where to buy baltic birch

    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
    I'm not a woodman or carpenter but have worked around most trades. (Also stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once or twice. )

    Any manufacturer can print that their product can be used for almost anything. But that does not mean that it is the accepted and approved method or product for that installation.

    Please show any links from the Tile Contractors Association of America, NTCA, or any other accredited professional tile installation instructions saying that this an approved substrate.

    Otherwise, it is not.

    J.C.
    Good grief, don't you guys ever give up? I suppose I should spend another hour or so to prove you wrong too, but I really don't give a rats butt if someone uses baltic birch for underlayment of tile or that it's been approved for any such use. I thought this was a WOODWORKING FORUM, not a tile, linoleum or carpet laying forum. The original question was as I remember, "Where can I find some Baltic Birch plywood? I told the guy Menards, he went there and saw it for himself. Isn't that good enough? I buy Baltic Birch for cabinet repair. I have even bought the Baltic Birch UNDERLAYMENT for cabinet repair, because SOMETIMES it appears to be better quality than the other Baltic Birch they have in stock and they sell it SOMETIMES in smaller 4'x5' sheets and SOMETIMES it doesn't have the football shaped plugs on either side so I can have a nice clean sheet without obvious defects. I cut it to size, install it on an antique cabinet, sand it and then finish it and guess what, SOMETIMES it turns out great at least for me and if it sells then maybe it works great for the customer too. I don't claim to be a carpenter, contractor, project manager, or plumber but I have worked with wood for at least 35 years, most of it full time, so I guess that makes me a woodworker. And I have also stayed at the Holiday Inn Express too.

    Goodnight.
    Last edited by OldHunter; 04-28-2009, 12:26 AM.

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    • #17
      Re: where to buy baltic birch

      There is a difference between saying you've never seen something and saying you would never do something. I try to not say I would (or will) never do something as that is the future and you can't know where that might lead. However, barring any significant memory lapses I can with reasonable assuredness say I have never seen something.

      So for me to say that I have never seen furniture grade plywood with football-shaped repairs does not mean they don't exist. When I worked in a lumber yard over 30 years ago all the A face grade ply we had did not have any repairs to it. Anything that had repairs to the face veneer was B grade at best. What we referred to as PTS back then was a B-C with repairs made to the face veneer which were then touch sanded (as opposed to the full sheet face being sanded which was a different product).

      But as you say never say never. I checked the APA website and found that by today's standard A grade veneer is allowed "not more than 18 neatly made repairs, wood only, per 4 x 8 panel, made parallel to the grain and well-matched for grain and color." Not much to cut around when you have a repair ever other square foot (on average).

      Now they market an even better (by today's standard) N grade (smooth surface "natural finish") veneer which is "free of open defects" but still allowed "not more than 6 repairs" per panel.

      Bottom line is we have no virgin trees to make quality plywood from, save for a limited supply which is now prohibitively expensive. England clear cut their forests hundreds of years ago. Hopefully we will manage ours better today.

      The other half of this is as what has become accepted policy across our society; When you can't make the grade, lower the standard. Which seems to apply to lumber, plywood, government, and just about everything else anymore.
      Last edited by Bob D.; 04-29-2009, 07:29 AM. Reason: Added link to the APA website
      ---------------
      Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
      ---------------
      “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
      ---------
      "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
      ---------
      sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: where to buy baltic birch

        Originally posted by oldhunter View Post
        good grief, don't you guys ever give up? I suppose i should spend another hour or so to prove you wrong too, but i really don't give a rats butt if someone uses baltic birch for underlayment of tile or that it's been approved for any such use. I thought this was a woodworking forum, not a tile, linoleum or carpet laying forum. The original question was as i remember, "where can i find some baltic birch plywood? I told the guy menards, he went there and saw it for himself. Isn't that good enough? I buy baltic birch for cabinet repair. I have even bought the baltic birch underlayment for cabinet repair, because sometimes it appears to be better quality than the other baltic birch they have in stock and they sell it sometimes in smaller 4'x5' sheets and sometimes it doesn't have the football shaped plugs on either side so i can have a nice clean sheet without obvious defects. I cut it to size, install it on an antique cabinet, sand it and then finish it and guess what, sometimes it turns out great at least for me and if it sells then maybe it works great for the customer too. I don't claim to be a carpenter, contractor, project manager, or plumber but i have worked with wood for at least 35 years, most of it full time, so i guess that makes me a woodworker. And i have also stayed at the holiday inn express too.

        Goodnight.
        if you could have proven me wrong you would have just like you tried to do to others. The fact of the matter is as things currently stand, you are wrong to state or assume the item you listed is approved underlayment for tile.

        It is a woodworking forum that incorrectly informed some that this product is the correct underlayment for tile.

        No big deal. Everybody's wrong sometime.

        (if you show where i'm incorrect in relation to this topic i'll remove my posts)

        j.c.
        Last edited by BobsPlumbing; 04-28-2009, 10:08 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: where to buy baltic birch

          Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
          if you could have proven me wrong you would have just like you tried to do to others. The fact of the matter is as things currently stand, you are wrong to state or assume the item you listed is approved underlayment for tile.

          It is a woodworking forum that incorrectly informed some that this product is the correct underlayment for tile.

          No big deal. Everybody's wrong sometime.

          (if you show where i'm incorrect in relation to this topic i'll remove my posts)

          j.c.
          Bud, as much fun as I have had with this, it's starting to get old. I ain't gonna spend anymore time on this but it appears to me you been "owned" just like the other guys who called me out on this. The tag in the store says it is used for underlayment and so therefore I have to assume that it is an approved product for that purpose. You are the one who stated it wasn't approved for this purpose. If you want to do the research that proves me wrong on this I will say I am wrong but for now the only thing you have is wild speculation from someone (you) who admits they don't even work in this trade. If you are right it's up to you to prove it.

          I don't really care one way or another cause I really don't have any dog in this fight. You don't have to remove anything, I could care less. If you find out it is not an approved product for this use, maybe you should just tell Menards, and if they don't do anything about it SUE them. But if you can't prove they are wrong, then they might just SUE you for libel for telling the world an untruth. I think the balls in your court. By the way why don't you call the folks who make PLYFLOOR (trade mark) PREMIUM UNDERLAYMENT that they are falsely advertising their product as being suitable for tile subfloor and tell them that you are telling the world that they are lying about their product on this forum. I'm sure they would be happy to talk to you.
          Last edited by OldHunter; 04-29-2009, 12:53 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: where to buy baltic birch

            Pub TT-006 from the APA website.

            Available for free but you must register.

            Lots of good information there on engineered wood products.
            Attached Files
            ---------------
            Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
            ---------------
            “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
            ---------
            "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
            ---------
            sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: where to buy baltic birch

              Originally posted by OldHunter View Post
              Bud, as much fun as I have had with this, it's starting to get old. I ain't gonna spend anymore time on this but it appears to me you been "owned" just like the other guys who called me out on this. The tag in the store says it is used for underlayment and so therefore I have to assume that it is an approved product for that purpose. You are the one who stated it wasn't approved for this purpose. If you want to do the research that proves me wrong on this I will say I am wrong but for now the only thing you have is wild speculation from someone (you) who admits they don't even work in this trade. If you are right it's up to you to prove it.

              I don't really care one way or another cause I really don't have any dog in this fight. You don't have to remove anything, I could care less. If you find out it is not an approved product for this use, maybe you should just tell Menards, and if they don't do anything about it SUE them. But if you can't prove they are wrong, then they might just SUE you for libel for telling the world an untruth. I think the balls in your court. By the way why don't you call the folks who make PLYFLOOR (trade mark) PREMIUM UNDERLAYMENT that they are falsely advertising their product as being suitable for tile subfloor and tell them that you are telling the world that they are lying about their product on this forum. I'm sure they would be happy to talk to you.
              Thanks Bob D.! Finally some information through all the mumbo jumbo.

              Look at Bob's link and it will show that some engineered wood products are approved for underlayment under the right installation methods in the TCNA handbook. (Only Table B is recognized even though Table A is listed. Remember, this is an APA-Engineered Wood Associations publication.)

              Guess OldHunter couldn't find it and or is satisfied doing what someone told him he/she could do.

              That, I guess is the difference between us. You clearly state "I really don't care one way or another". Well I do. And while I'm not in the Woodworking trade, there are thousands of Plumbers, Electricians, Woodworkers, etc. that have been doing things incorrectly or in a low quality manner because that's what they were told they could do.

              As long as Menard's Baltic Birch meets the minimum thickness, tensile & deflection strengths, is T&G, and Exposure 1 rated.....then it can be used.

              If it is not. Then it should not be used.

              J.C.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: where to buy baltic birch

                Is it possible that Menard's "underlayment" is for carpet and not tile? I'm just thinking there's probably a good bit of difference in the requirements for the type of underlayment depending on what it's going under.
                I put it all back together better than before. There\'s lots of leftover parts.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: where to buy baltic birch

                  This took me 10 seconds to find and should have been at post #15.

                  Thanks OldHunter!

                  http://http://www.halexcorp.com/ceramictile.pdf

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: where to buy baltic birch

                    Originally posted by OldHunter View Post
                    Actually no, I am quite sure that it is Baltic Birch. I was in Menards today for something else and I made a note of the merchandise tag. It reads as follows:

                    1/4" x 4'x8' Plyfloor TM Premium Underlayment $27.99
                    Nominal size
                    5 ply Baltic Birch Plywood
                    6mm thckness
                    BB/CP Grade Virtually Clean Sanded Face
                    Solid Sanded back Solid Core, no voids, exterior glue
                    for use under Sheet Vinyl, Ceramic Tile, Vinyl Tile and Carpet
                    SKU # 125-1905

                    They also had regular Baltic Birch ply as follows:
                    1/4"x4'x8' $25.99
                    1/2"x4'x8' $52.99
                    3/4"x4'x8' $69.99

                    I repair and restore Antique Furniture and have used Baltic Birch for probably over 25 years for cabinet backs and drawer bottoms. I prefer it to regular birch ply because it is more stable and less prone to warping and when you need 1/4" ply like the 100 year old ply I am replacing, it actually measures very close to 1/4" rather than 3/16" like other birch ply. I think the 5'x5' sheets I get from lumber wholesalers are often better quality, but I have to take what they send me and sometimes the sheet has a lot of those annoying football shaped plugs that I have to cut around. Sometimes it's nice to be able to sort though the pile at Menards, but then what do I know, I'm just a woodworker.

                    hmm unless things have changed i remember real baltic birtch comes in 5' x 5' sheets and not 4' x 8'. Im talking cabinet grade stuff here where a half inch sheet has like 11 plys and a 3/4 sheet has something like 14 or 22 plys.

                    Some more info from where i get my ply http://www.boulterplywood.com/MultiLayerPlywood_4.htm


                    Never noticed the 4x8 sheets before heh oh well anyway acording to these prices 1/4 underlay of this would be cost prohibitive at best im sure it would be ok for lino or vinal but i wouldnt use this stuff for Ceramic tiles. moisture in bathroom as specialy tends to delam ply under tiles so does the thinset used to install them. I've seen it way too many times. although on the other hand if people want to keep doing this i'll always have a tile job or 2 a week
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by Arthur96; 04-29-2009, 03:30 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: where to buy baltic birch

                      Ok, so where we at with this. Oh yeah, it's Oldhunter the simple woodworker VS the BIG THREE EXPERTS. Lets start with Bob. Oh and by the way, thanks for the ply links, they've been most helpful. Anyway Bob said "This sounds more like PTS (Plugged and Touch Sanded) ply, not furniture grade ply. I've never seen cabinet grade or furniture grade plywood that has been plugged to fill voids or where knots have been cut out of the veneer." The way I figure it Bob's off the hook, cause all he said was he's never seen it, but acknowledges it appears to be true now cause they changed the standards since he worked in the industry back 30 years ago. NO problem with that.

                      Art says
                      Originally posted by Arthur96 View Post
                      Underlayment for tiles? Baltic birch? never. never ever. I've seen luan used for underlayment for tiles and even that is a no-no. could it be its something else and you mistakenly grouped it with the Baltic ply?
                      and then JC posts a link to the folks who make the PlyFloor material for Menards. They say on their website that their product that is the thickness that's sold at Menards is not intended to be used for Ceramic tile, but is suitable for Linoleum, Linoleum Tile and Carpet. So Art possibly is partially right and also partially wrong because he failed to stipulate what kind of tile he was talking about and the thickness of the Baltic Birch. Now he admits that perhaps it's ok for those other purposes after he checks his source of Baltic Birch, but he made the fatal mistake of saying NEVER, NEVER EVER. However, he still could be a big winner if folks choose to use Baltic Birch for underlayment, and he gets one or two jobs a week which can be really important in these trying times.

                      Lastly we have JC the Plumber who really seems to care, even though I have clearly stated I don't.
                      He says "Thanks Bob D.! Finally some information through all the mumbo jumbo. "

                      "Look at Bob's link and it will show that some engineered wood products are approved for underlayment under the right installation methods in the TCNA handbook. (Only Table B is recognized even though Table A is listed. Remember, this is an APA-Engineered Wood Associations publication.)

                      Guess OldHunter couldn't find it and or is satisfied doing what someone told him he/she could do.

                      That, I guess is the difference between us. You clearly state "I really don't care one way or another". Well I do. And while I'm not in the Woodworking trade, there are thousands of Plumbers, Electricians, Woodworkers, etc. that have been doing things incorrectly or in a low quality manner because that's what they were told they could do.

                      As long as Menard's Baltic Birch meets the minimum thickness, tensile & deflection strengths, is T&G, and Exposure 1 rated.....then it can be used.

                      If it is not. Then it should not be used. "


                      And that is the $64 question. Menards has posted in their stores that it sells-

                      1/4" x 4'x8' Plyfloor TM Premium Underlayment $27.99
                      Nominal size
                      5 ply Baltic Birch Plywood
                      6mm thickness
                      BB/CP Grade Virtually Clear Sanded Face
                      Solid Sanded back Solid Core, no voids, exterior glue
                      for use under Sheet Vinyl, Ceramic Tile, Vinyl Tile and Carpet
                      SKU # 125-1905

                      So what are we arguing for, it appears to be a clear case of misrepresentation if the product doesn't meet the qualification standards you have listed. If those are indeed the standards of the industry then the way I see someone may have goofed up. It's possible either Menards is at fault or the company that makes PlyFloor is at fault. Myself, I haven't advocated use of Baltic Birch or PlyFloor for anything other than furniture repair. I am simply the messenger. Since you do care so much I assume you will be calling your attorney to go after these scalawags. I see a bright future for JC's Plumbing. Get after em and let us know how you come out.

                      Fellas it's been a great debate but you finally wore me down. I see no clear winners here and no clear losers, I'm tired of the whole thing and I've got to get to bed. I'm headed out for a spring turkey hunt in the morning. It's been fun.

                      PS - two things I lied about. The Menards underlayment doesn't have black X's on it anymore, it's got green dots where you screw it down, and JC, I really do care too. I'm out.
                      Last edited by OldHunter; 04-29-2009, 11:38 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: where to buy baltic birch

                        hehe Just for the record when i said never never ever i was refering to ceramic tiles and not vinal or lino. luan and its ilk have been used prety well for vinal for many a year.

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