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Vibration with the r4511

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  • Vibration with the r4511

    Hi, Im new to Ridgid and this forum. I was hoping someone would have some suggestions. My new saw has a vibration problem. Its not a big vibration, but it has a hum that last about 2 seconds which repeats itself about every 3 seconds. Like I said, the vibrations aren't big, just annoying. The saw also doesn't pass the nickel test (it fell on shut off). I took my time putting the saw together. I checked to see if the arbor and motor were aligned (eyeball with a straight edge). I readjusted the blade twice on the arbor (not that there is much of any play). And the saw is sitting on all fours and everything is level. Does anyone have other suggestions or something Im totally missing?

  • #2
    Re: Vibration with the r4511

    Try grabbing onto the rip fence storage hooks and/or the wrench storage hook with the saw running.

    Pretty sure mine reverberate a little.

    As far as the nickel falling down on shut off, there has been a lot of discussion on how the motor "winds down". Some people experience it, others dont, and some just have it to varying degrees (mine does it, but the nickel doesnt fall over). Ive determined Id rather just save my nickels in a coin jar than test all my tools

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Vibration with the r4511

      The nickel test proves you have a saw and a nickel, and not much more....not all nickels are the same width. Also, there's a common phenomenon call regeneration that's caused by the caps on an induction motor that can cause a brief shimmy at shutdown, which of course often topples the nickel. The saw should run smoothly during operation though.

      Chris' suggestions are good...check for some add-on parts that are vibrating. Vibration is typically caused by the belt, pulleys, motor shaft, arbor shaft, or blade. Are the pulleys aligned with each other, does the belt have a set or a zig in it, are any of the pulleys bent or out of round? Try swapping a different blade to see if the vibration persists....a good aftermarket blade is a good upgrade from the stock blade anyway. If it's not the blade, unplug the saw, take the belt off the motor, plug in the saw, and run just the motor to help isolate where the problem is. If the problem goes away, then it could be the belt, pulleys, or arbor. If the problem is with the motor, you'll need to replace the motor (under warranty), or identify the source within the motor. You may also want to try swapping belts if you can get a hold of another one. Either way, all of this should be covered under warranty, though it'd be nice to not have to start from the beginning.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Vibration with the r4511

        Hi 2percent,

        The hum that you are describing sounds like it may be coming directly from the motor. You can take off your belt and run just the motor to see if it's producing the noise you hear. My motor initially had some of this type of humming (hum for a few seconds, stop, and then repeat every 3 seconds or so as you describe) when I first turned it on. After running it a while, this seems to have improved and now I only get it rarely. I put it down to the motor breaking-in, but I am not a motor expert.

        I also experienced occasional minor vibration/shimmy when my saw was shut off. This was nearly eliminated when I switched out the stock blade with a higher quality Infinity Combo-Max thin kerf blade together with 3 inch stabilizers.

        Dave

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Vibration with the r4511

          Thanks for all the suggestions. I took the belt off and ran the motor, and there was no vibrations at all. I examined the belt and it didn't seem to have creases either. The vibration is more consistent now so I guess I'll just see if it gets better with time.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Vibration with the r4511

            I'm seeing similar vibration, though the frequency is different. In my case, it's more of a pulsing or "throbbing" at about 3-4 cycles per second.

            Removing the blade makes no difference, but without the belt the motor is smooth and quiet.

            The arbor is tight and smooth, with < 0.0005 runout measured on the arbor face.

            Running with the access door open, I could see the belt vibrating. Watching the motor as I shut it down, I could see it moving up and down when it slowed enough to be visible.

            I then put a dial indicator on the motor and watched as I rotated the arbor by hand. This revealed at least 2 separate cycles -- the motor moves up and down with each revolution of the arbor, indicating an eccentricity in either the arbor pulley or the motor pulley, or both. But also, there is a longer cycle which spans several revolutions. This is most likely irregularities in the belt.

            I suspect the pulsing I hear results from the "beating" of these two frequencies against each other. By itself, the pulley eccentricity would produce more of a loud hum at operating speed -- not ideal, but not so annoying. A better belt could help.

            I've seen some mention of upgrading the belt. Does anyone have a source and/or number for such a belt? Has anyone upgraded their pulleys?

            And finally, it would seem pulley alignment might affect all of these -- is there any way to check this without removing the top?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Vibration with the r4511

              McMaster.com part #9003K16

              "Ultra-flex J-section Neoprene Belt, 6 Ribs, Trade Size 300j6, 30.5" Outer Circle"

              I wasnt able to source one locally.......since the motor hangs inside the cabinet you can probably be a little leniant with sizes (i.e. 29.5" outer circle, 31.5", etc) but I would aim for the stock size which is the one listed above.

              I replaced my stocker because it was packaged folded under itself and the kink never seemed to work itself out. Once it was run for a little whle you could also see where the kinked portion was hitting the side of the pulley, leaving a little bit of the inner "core" exposed. Wasnt in danger of falling apart, but just obvious that it wasnt great.

              McMaster shipped a Goodyear belt, in perfect shape. Motor bounces less now that the kink is gone (my delta bandsaw stock belt had this same issue). I didnt notice any vibration/cyclic noise from the stock belt though.

              As far as lining up the pulleys I stupidly forgot to do so before putting the top back on. I tilted the bevel to 45 and then aligned by "feel" with a straight edge. Basically hold the straightedge flat against one of the pulleys then run your hand up the straightedge to the other pulley and feel if there is a gap. After a few tries I was able to make sure there was none that I could tell.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Vibration with the r4511

                Excellent! Thanks -- I'll see if a new belt and alignment will make it happier.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Vibration with the r4511

                  I have not checked the alignment yet, but the new belt made a big difference!

                  I did measure about 0.002 - 0.005 runout on both the arbor pulley and the motor pulley and I might try to get some of that out, but then again, I'm pretty happy with it now.

                  Also, the shutdown "shudder" is much less pronounced with the new belt. Although regeneration could be a factor, I suspect more significant is the motor bouncing up and down. When it's running, the higher frequency makes it sort of "float", but as it slows down, you get the full effect of the motor's dance.

                  I haven't had a good look at the arbor pulley, but the motor pulley is just a fixed-bore keyed pulley, which can easily be off-center. Better would be a tapered bushing pulley, but they're pricey.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Vibration with the r4511

                    i am also getting a lot of vibration with a crazy shimmy during startup and shutdown. it appears that the top pulley has a wobble or the arbor is bent. i can see this wobble by eye when turning the top arbor by hand, while looking up from the inside of the cabinet.

                    I have loosened the nut which holds the top pulley. there seems to be a lot of play around the arbor shaft and the pulley, slop. also the top pulley has a mare on it, like it has been banged.

                    the shimmy and vibration during start up and shut down is so bad that a nickel laying flat, moves on the top (no wax on top yet). once up to speed, there is enough vibration to know something is not right.

                    my wife asked "is it supposed to do that".

                    i have checked the belt, the pulley alignment, and the saw is level on a flat surface, legs firmly planted. the blade is off. no vibration when the belt is off.

                    any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
                    the guys at home depot have already changed out the front fence rails, since the holes were in the wrong place.

                    i'm quickly loosing that new tool feeling.
                    Last edited by woodruf; 07-30-2009, 09:16 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Vibration with the r4511

                      Originally posted by 2Percent View Post
                      The saw also doesn't pass the nickel test (it fell on shut off).
                      That part is easily fixed by means of super glue

                      Other than that it does look like something round is not well balanced. Puleys? Blade arbor?
                      In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Vibration with the r4511

                        Although the new belt made a noticeable difference, and although nickel-balancing was not one of the reasons I bought this saw, out of curiosity I decided to pursue this further.

                        On eBay, I found a seller offering Gates Micro-V taper-lock sheaves for $8, so I bought a couple just to see if they would make a difference. I had to buy the taper-lock bushings from another source. I paid <$10 each for these -- I could have got them for much less, but decided to go with the Gates brand partly because they were available immediately.

                        With taper lock sheaves on the motor and the arbor, the saw is much smoother. I haven't yet tried balancing nickels, but I'm sure they would do better.

                        The biggest problem I encountered is that the eBay sheaves are 2.24" diameter while the original sheaves are 2.00". It seems that extra 1/8" radius is just enough that the arbor sheave rubs on the underside of the table when the blade is fully raised. It's also just enough that the motor hits the trunnion when fully raised.

                        Right now, I have the oversized taper lock sheave on the motor and the original sheave on the arbor. The vibration is not as bad as with both original sheaves, but it's there. Of course, in this configuration the blade speed is 12% higher than normal.

                        Having come this far, I decided I might as well complete the experiment, so I ordered 2 2.00" sheaves. They're on backorder.

                        I'm convinced the problem stems from the design. By hanging the motor by the belt, any eccentricity in the sheaves or irregularity in the belt causes the motor to move up and down. It doesn't move much, but it is a heavy motor.

                        If you lift the motor with your hand so that its weight is not supported by the belt, most of the vibration goes away. Of course, this is not a solution, because you need the belt tension to prevent slippage and to prevent the belt itself from vibrating.

                        The taper lock sheaves help by reducing the eccentricity of the sheaves.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Vibration with the r4511

                          Originally posted by woodruf View Post
                          i am also getting a lot of vibration with a crazy shimmy during startup and shutdown. it appears that the top pulley has a wobble or the arbor is bent. i can see this wobble by eye when turning the top arbor by hand, while looking up from the inside of the cabinet.

                          I have loosened the nut which holds the top pulley. there seems to be a lot of play around the arbor shaft and the pulley, slop. also the top pulley has a mare on it, like it has been banged.

                          the shimmy and vibration during start up and shut down is so bad that a nickel laying flat, moves on the top (no wax on top yet). once up to speed, there is enough vibration to know something is not right.

                          my wife asked "is it supposed to do that".

                          i have checked the belt, the pulley alignment, and the saw is level on a flat surface, legs firmly planted. the blade is off. no vibration when the belt is off.

                          any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
                          the guys at home depot have already changed out the front fence rails, since the holes were in the wrong place.

                          i'm quickly loosing that new tool feeling.
                          also, the motor travels up and down 5/16th of an inch while turning the arbor by hand.

                          thanks all for your posts, but I would rather not nor would consider replacing any defects at my expense. this is a brand new tool.

                          I still hope someone here will read my post above and help resolve this vibration issue.

                          thanks

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Vibration with the r4511

                            Sorry to hear about all your saw problems. I'm not an expert, but if it was me, I'd take the table top off so I could better see the entire arbor shaft assembly. By referring to the exploded parts diagram (Figure B of your Repair Sheet booklet), you can systematically disassemble/examine the various components until you identify the offending culprit. It may be a defective pulley. If the pulley is not tight on the arbor, is your key missing (part #3)? I have no play at my pulley.

                            Good luck!

                            Dave

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Vibration with the r4511

                              Originally posted by woodruf View Post
                              also, the motor travels up and down 5/16th of an inch while turning the arbor by hand.

                              thanks all for your posts, but I would rather not nor would consider replacing any defects at my expense. this is a brand new tool.

                              I still hope someone here will read my post above and help resolve this vibration issue.

                              thanks
                              5/16 is way more than I have seen on mine. In my case, I consider the changes I've made to be upgrades to improve a minor deficiency.

                              What you are describing is a defect, which is what the warranty is for. The stock belt has some irregularities, but nothing close to 5/16", and it is adequate. The stock arbor and motor sheaves are inherently not as precise as a tapered bushing sheave, but they are adequate. Most people who have reported vibration in this saw find it not to be a problem. What you describe is a problem.

                              You mentioned that the arbor shaft seems to have some damage. If you remove the sheave, can you detect eccentricity or wobble in the arbor shaft? You also mention significant "slop" in the sheave when you remove the nut. This sounds more likely to be the source of the problem. Either the shaft diameter is too small or the sheave bore is too large. Do you have the means to measure these? The diameter should be 5/8".

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