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Of course the trunnion can be adjusted (moved). It is bolted to the cabinet. More than likely a big alignment problem would be due to it having moved in transit (as it would probably have been fairly close to correct when it left the factory)
Thanks. It would have been nice if the tech suggested that, when I called before enlarging the top bolt holes. Instead she sent me shims that I gather are for adjusting the 45 degree setting by moving the pivot plane of the trunnion.
I didn't take the granite top off during unloading and assembly of my saw. I was hoping that the factory settings woud be good enough to begin using it without making any blade alignment adjustments but I was wrong. When I checked the blade to miter slot alignment with a dial indicator attached to a jig I made from scap wood, the measurements I got were unacceptable.
So this bring me to a question that came up during the different measurements I took of the front and back of the blade:
1. With the blade set at 90 degree angle and at full height and the dial indicator at right angle to the blade, I got .009 misalignment from the front to the back of the blade.
2. This time I set the dial indicator at 45 degree angle to the blade and got a misalignment reading of .018 (twice as much).
So the question is, which measurements are more reliable?
Or does it really matter? as long as the discrepancy is brought down as close to zero as possible?
Are you rotating the blade and using the same tooth for your reference point? If not, make sure you do (to take blade warp out of the mix)
I would get the blade/miter slot as close to .000 as possible, then check at 45. Mine is out less than .003 at 45 (after reshimming the table)
Yes, I'm using the same tooth as reference point. And just to clarify, in all the measurements I performed, I kept the blade at 90 degree angle and at full height. The only thing I did different in one set of measurements was to angle the dial indicator at 45 degree. Tilting the dial indicator like that allowed me to take measurements almost at the widest part of the blade, very close to the horizontal plane of the arbor.
Since I kept the blade at the same fixed position in relation to the table top, why the discrepancy in the readings?
I got to get the blade aligned in parallel to the miter slot before I can move on to do the 45 degree blade alignment and get the shimming going.
hawk...have you read the paper that is referenced in the first post in this thread? it deals with the issue you are having, and takes it one step further by addressing the blade alignment once the saw blade is tilted to 45 degrees. post 15 has the updsated version of this excellent write up that adddresses the blade alignment of the 4511 quite thoroughly. FWIW.
there's a solution to every problem.....you just have to be willing to find it.
Moving the trunnion would eliminate having to enlarge the holes...that is what you are aligning..the top to the trunnion.
Here it is 6 months later and I think it is time that I move my trunnion, as I discovered, upon playing with my new toy (TS-Aligner Jr.) that my blade's rear was .023" off to the right of the front measurement (using the same spot on the blade.) Worse, the enlarged holes I made in the cabinet for the table top bolts would not permit me to correct it to any less than .018".
I don't think that anything has moved since I went through the original set up, when I enlarged some bolt holes, but this is the result of poor wet up technique possibly amplified by use of a cheap machinist square. (Mainly poor technique, including actually losening one trunnion bolt my mistake for some stupid reason. That and not marking which shim went where when the top was taken off in order to make the saw lighter so that my kids and I could move it.
Anyway, I have my saw torn down with the top removed and am ready to attack those nasty trunnions, but have been unable to find any info on how to move and align them. (Not talking about aliging the tilted top with the plane of the trunnion) What I have found seems to talk about contractor type saw trunninons. One guy (KingofSpain) moved his and commented that he wouldn't do that again, having almost dropped the motor. Hence, I am cautious.
I don't see a problem with moving the trunnion assembly to help you align the miter slots to the blade axis. I'm assuming you've "maxed-out" the alignment leeway of the tabletop, since that's much easier to adjust.
The trunnion rides in the curved "ways" of the front and rear support brackets (where all the lithium grease is). It is the attachment of these brackets with the cabinet that you will be adjusting. Both brackets need to maintain correct alignment with the trunnion or the trunnion might pop out of the ways when you angle the blade. I would take careful measurements of the exact distance between the front and rear brackets on both the left and right sides. Once you move one bracket, you must move the other bracket exactly the same amount to keep both in alignment with the trunnion. You should be able to duplicate your initial measurements after both are moved. I would suggest putting a support under the motor and trunnion assembly when you do this just in case the trunnion pops out while you are adjusting the brackets.
Hopefully, moving the trunnion will put the blade in gross alignment with the miter slots and allow you to simply move the table top in all future alignments. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
In thinking about it, if you have already enlarged the mounting holes for the top and still can't get proper alignment...is there something other than the bolts keeping the top from moving the necessary amount? (the amount of slop you have now should allow for probably a half inch of deviation from the front to back of the top).
i tried for about two hours to get my table aligned but could not get it square. So what i did was squared the rip fence to the miter slot. after i did that i took the rip fence all the way to the board that i had attached to the arbor and squared them up. That actually got me within about .009 if an in with the dial indicater. then a few more times i using the dial indicator i got the top square with the blade within less the .001 of an inch.
DaveWoodWork: I believe I have alignment to the perpindicular blade in the bag and am now going out to pick up some shim material to true the plane of the table to the plane of the arbor Iif that is what your instructions are about.) Interestingly, the plane of my table is off nearly the same as yours, except my back is low and needs to be raised by shims.
Regarding shimming, with the aid of Ed Bennett I figured out how to calculate shims for the rear right bolt location. Your instructions treat both reat bolts as if they are the same distance from the top's rear edge.
FWIW, the right rear calls for less than .001" less shim. (LR is .040375 and the right is .039455.) So treating them the same, as you did, works out pretty well.
On the subject of shims, Bennet of TS-Aligner suggests aluminum foil for ultra fine adjustments.
Based on what you wrote about the importance of keeping the parts of the trunnion internally aligned, I am glad I was able to leave it alone.
Tom, Unless things are thrown off when I do the 45 degree aliggnement and cannot be adjusted, I am pretty tickeled with how it sits after filing spots in the holes AND filing the circular edges of two washers flat. Both rear washers were butting up against the left side of the cabinet or angle iron along the right side so as to prevent the top from moving, regardless of how much the holes were enlarged.
Re: R4511 Table top alignmement and the 90 degree stop
When I spoke to a tech at One World Technologies she said that I must set the 90 degree (some call it the degree) stop before aligning the table's miter groove to the blade. DO NOT do that. If the trunnion is up against the stop screw it is difficult to slide the top or if one end goes one way the top wants to pivot on the screw and the other end moves the other way. I think it best to set the blade to vertical and then clamp the trunnion to ensure that the blade doesn't move while you work on alignment. When you are done aligning the blade, then you can seet the stop. (Some don't even like to use it and set it so they can go just past vertical if they wish, but they check the bevel with something more accurate than a set screw.)
Just locked down my top (permatexed the bolts). Even after the top was aligned to the 90 degree blade, I couldn't get it at 45. It looked close (within .005") but I noticed the top rocked a little when pressing down on the left rear. (Per pythogoream's theorem and Dave's excellent intructions I shimmed the front. Left: .064" and Right: .049". I even shimmed the right rear .001" to allow for the fqact that it was slighly nearer the front than the left rear bolt.) I slid a .015" shim in at the left rear and that did it. That beast is dead on at 90 and .0005" ( 5/10,000" off at 45 (or close to it given my dial indicator's tolerance.)
Now for tomorrow, when I can but the rest of it back together and try out my new Wood Worker II.