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  • #16
    The computer software isn't the most reliable analogy, since by definition the user makes a copy of the work when it is "installed" on his hard disk; in effect, the software license authorizes a limited number of copies.

    No one has ever suggested that a library that lends printed materials to cardholders is violating the copyright of the authors or publishers of the materials.


    • #17
      Scorpion wrote: "So if a bunch of guys all pooled their plans into a library and always pulled the originals, without making copies, they could all share the same set of plans without copyright violation?"

      I answered: "Our woodworkers club has done precisely that. Public Libraries exist for no other purpose than to share books."

      Modern software is nearly never simply copied, it changes form drastically when installed. But that is way off my point, I could have as easily used a title restriction that prevents a house from being painted red.

      My point was that any particular plan provider may restrict the ways in which their product may be used. Being a generally law abiding dude, if I purchased a plan with such restriction, I would either comply or return the product unused if compliance would not accomplish my intended goal in purchasing that product.



      • #18
        I didn't mean to start a debate on copyright laws. I only want to share plans. anyone interested?


        • #19
          It's going to get worse: Yes, Dave, you could sell your house and put a covenant in the deed by which the grantee promised not to paint it red. But unless you retained title to the adjoining lot, you could not enforce that covenant in most states.

          In general a guy who sells you a copy of his copyrighted work but purports to restrict your ability to re-sell that copy (not a copy of the copy you bought) would have trouble enforcing that restriction, and short of that, you ought not to pay what he is asking, since you aren't getting your money's worth.

          There is one well-known exception of which I am aware, and that is when you hire an architect. Generally, the form of contract provides that the architect retains ownership of the drawings he produces, but the customer has the right to have one house (or other building) constructed in accordance with the plans. But this really isn't the same thing, since in this case you're buying architectural professional services, not just a piece of paper.

          Back to woodworking.


          • #20
            "But unless you retained title to the adjoining lot, you could not enforce that covenant in most states"

            You obviously have never read California deed restrictions. Color restrictions are actually fairly common in some areas. Deed CC&Rs are eminently enforceable, if anyone actually wants to do the enforcement.

            "since you aren't getting your money's worth"

            Nonsense. How could you possibly judge that someone is not getting their money's worth, purely based on a restriction that may or may not make one whit of difference to them?

            Let's say I invest the time and effort in doing a truly great set of plans for a Louis XIV Commode. Please further suppose that one other company has a similar plan of equal quality. They sell theirs for $200, and the only restriction is that the resulting piece cannot be sold commercially (a common restriction, by the way). I decide that my only restriction is that the plan cannot be transferred, but that an unlimited number of pieces may be built for personal or commercial purpose. And I decide to sell my plan for a hundred.

            How could that -unconditionally- be said that the buyer is not getting their money's worth?



            • #21
              This is getting ugly...but nice.

              "I suppose a license agreement could be attached to the plans that do not allow this activity, like much computer software has."

              Careful here...the agreement is there; its the little "c" with the circle around it. But in your reference, the activity you mention (sharing original plans) is usually permitted. How you chose to personally use your plan is up to you as long as you abide by the copyright. But to caveat this, most intellectual material bears the requirement that you may not duplicate, alter, or distribute the material by any means to include mechanical or electronic means (ie. xerox (tm) or computer).

              The gray area is what constitutes distribution and this IS a gray area. I'll not attempt to tackle this one as the owner of the copyright may specify it and I'm not sure what WGBH's (the owner of the NYW copyright) policies are.

              Your best bet is ALWAYS to contact them and ask. Usually this is all that is ever required; to inform them of your intended use and ask for a release. Usually there are no additional fees since you already own the material but you never know.

              I want to thank all the contributors to this thread. This is the kind of mature discussion that I love to see on this forum. You are all a bunch of great guys and gals.

              P.S. I reserve the right to be incorrect on issues that may vary from state to state.
              - Tim


              • #22
                Dave: I am not licensed to practice in California, true. However, I'll bet the price of lunch that the situations you refer to are so-called "common scheme restrictions," which are imposed by the developer of a subdivision upon and in favor of all lots in the subdivision. The are stated to be appurtenant to the other lots, and are enforceable by the owner of the adjoining lots (from time to time) or a homeowners association.

                In the situation I referred to, you own a single house lot. You sell it and move far away. You put a restriction in the deed prohibiting the new owner (and all successive owners, also?) from painting the house red. Since you don't own any adjoining property, this is known as an easement (or restriction) "in gross" (as opposed to "appurtenant"), and at English common law (from which the property law of each of the United States other than Louisiana derives), since you don't have any remaining property interest in what color your old house is, it would not be enforceable. This has been confirmed by statute in most states, but, again, I'm only licensed to practice law in one of them.

                Boy, it ain't hard to get far off the subject of what the forum is supposed to be about, huh? (But, as the man said, it's fun.)


                • #23
                  Y'all are incorrigible. For what very little it is worth, I am not a California Real Estate Attorney either. What they hammered into us licensed Real Estate Agents "back when" was to be d@#%$ed careful that if we discovered an oddball deed restriction to disclose it to everyone we met. There have been interesting court battles in the State regarding oddball restrictions. California, oddball, hard to believe, huh?

                  I'm thinking of publishing some woodworking plans and attaching the restriction that they not be used to build furniture painted red....



                  • #24
                    Then I guess your plans won't include a model fire engine?


                    • #25
                      Historic demand for model fire engine furniture is pretty low anyway...

                      "Restrictions: These plans shall not be used to produce furniture that will be painted red, or made of red oak. Any violation"...



                      • #26
                        Okay so is anyone interested in trading router plans then?

                        I mean if someone purchased a router plan from NYW and decided not to use it but instead to "trade" it for something else they can use with another woodworker, should be okay yes?


                        • #27
                          <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave Arbuckle:
                          My understanding is that he only uses those nails "until the glue dries". Do they ever show the 150kW electromagnet he uses to get them back out?


                          Come on, this is Norm we're talking about. Electromagnets are for amatures. He's got an MRI unit specifically for that purpose.


                          • #28
                            You all sound like a bunch of bureaucratic politicians and not one of you have answered my original question. Is there anyone wanting to trade, sell, give, lend, borrow any type of plans? If so, let me know or else let's end this topic.