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R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

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  • R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

    I have seen the idea of upgrading the sheaves to stop the shut down shimmy. Has any one actually done it? If so, do you have a source / part numbers?

  • #2
    Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

    I don't believe the pulleys are the problem. They are not cast, but machined on a lathe, so they should be very true running. This shut down problem has something to do with the windings in the motor. It was explained on a previous thread very well. Mine will shut down different every time I turn it off.

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    • #3
      Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

      Try this sometime and please report back here.

      A) Remove the belt and run the motor with sheave installed.

      B) Try shutting it off using the power switch and also by pulling the plug on the power cord. Do you notice any difference based on how you stop it?

      C) In all too many cases we (me included) think the sheaves/pulleys are the problem but they really arent.

      D) With the belt off, get a good magnifying glass and under good light really inspect it for any lumps, flats and the like. Anymore too many belts and especially the POC ones from China are defective when new.

      E) If you do find that you want to replace both the motor and arbor drive sheaves it can be done and Browning makes some fine cast iron ones. I would need specs for the factory sheaves that came with the saw and then I can help more. Also, I need any numbers on the belt.
      Last edited by Woussko; 09-19-2009, 07:53 PM.

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      • #4
        Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

        I totally agree with Woussko that the original belts are junk. Let's face it, you can get the whole saw on sale for about $450.00, and HD and Ridgid still make a profit. They aren't going to put on a $12 belt as original equipment. Someone on this forum bought this belt http://www.mcmaster.com/#9003k16/=3pdxjy and said it worked great!

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        • #5
          Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

          I have checked the motor without the belt and had no shutter at all on run-down. I have found the proper belt from McMaster and it is on the way. I am just trying to see what my next option would be cost wise, and whether it is worth pursuit. The shut-down shutter is livable, but I like to improve things where I can. Thanks for the info!

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          • #6
            Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

            I have tried new sheaves, and it does make a difference. The problem with the stock sheaves is not the quality of their manufacture -- they are good enough, but it is not easy to get them perfectly centered. This is because they are a slip fit on their shafts, and when you tighten the set screw they end up being slightly offset. The difference is not huge, I think I measured about 0.005" offset on one of them.

            I agree the irregularites in the belt are more significant than this. I replaced my belt and saw a significant improvement. However, there was still some vibration, especially on shutdown.

            I went looking for tapered-bushing sheaves and found an eBay seller offering 2.25" Taper-Lock sheaves for a good price. I had to order matching bushings. For anyone not familiar with these, they work much like a collet, clamping evenly around the shaft and ensuring that the sheave is centered on the shaft.

            The problem with these sheaves is that they are wider than the originals by about 3/8". This is not a problem on the motor end, but the arbor sheave rubs on the underside of the table when the blade is raised fully. The recess milled in the granite does not accommodate the wider sheave. Aside from this, I am very pleased with the result. If the slightly reduced cutting depth becomes a problem, I may revert to the original sheave or consider other alternatives, but so far it is not a problem.

            As I see it, the real problem is that the motor is hanging by the belt, which means that any irregularity in the belt or eccentricity in the sheaves causes the motor to move up and down. The geometry of the motor mounting magnifies this motion. It does not move much, though it is visible, but when you move that much weight even a small amount it does result in vibration.

            At speed, the motor cannot move fast enough to keep up with the fluctuations and just "floats" like a jockey on a trotting horse, so you don't see much vibration when it's running. But at lower speeds (nearly stopped), when it is slowing down, at some point it settles into the rhythm and really dances.

            For anyone interested in trying new sheaves, the Gates designation for 2" Taper-Lock sheaves is "Taper-Lock Micro-V Sheave 6J2.00-1108". The 6J is the belt profile, 2.00 is the diameter, and 1108 is the Taper-Lock bushing size. You will also need Taper-Lock bushings. These are designated by the bushing size and shaft diameter: '1108 Taper-Lock Bushing, 1108 X 5/8"'.

            I got the bushings and 2.00" sheaves from www.kscdirect.com, which has pretty good prices on the sheaves, bushings, and belts. They have different (less expensive) brands of the same parts, but they were not in stock at the time I ordered.

            It may be possible to find a different bushing style which will not be as wide, which could avoid the rubbing problem I mentioned above.

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            • #7
              Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

              You say the sheave on the arbor rubs... Is this only the 2.25" ebay purchased sheave or the Gates 2" as well? Losing any functionality would turn me off from this upgrade.

              The PN's I have pulled are GAT 7813-6200 sheave and DOD 117075 bushing on KSC. This set-up should also work with the stock belt I assume.

              Thanks!

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              • #8
                Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

                Initially, I thought it was the larger OD which caused the rubbing. That is what inspired me to get the 2.00" sheaves. I was surprised and disappointed when these rubbed as well. I have not taken the table off, but it seems that the recess milled in the underside of the table is only large enough to accommodate the stock sheave. The stock sheave is only as wide as the belt, but the new one is about a half inch wider overall, so it sticks out further along the arbor's axis.

                I've thought some of chucking it in the lathe and turning it down a bit, but I'd be concerned about weakening it. Since you already have the belt coming, I'd suggest seeing if that takes care of the problem for you.

                The Gates number you have is the same one I have, and it works perfectly with the stock belt, or the upgraded belt. I don't have the Dodge bushing, so I can't confirm whether this is correct.
                Last edited by tjc; 09-20-2009, 05:15 PM.

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                • #9
                  Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

                  I will wait until the belt comes before trying this option.

                  Thanks for the info!

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                  • #10
                    Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

                    Okay! Got the new belt today from McMaster and installed it. It is definitely better, but the run down shimmy still exists. With out a belt, the motor winds down as smooth as can be, with next to no shudder. But turning the arbor by hand with the belt on swings the motor just enough to notice and shows that the sheaves are not concentric with the shaft causing the motor to bounce on wind down. I may do the upgrade on the sheaves and report back in the next few weeks. I am still trying to decide if it would be worth the effort and money invested.

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                    • #11
                      Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

                      I put on a new belt from McMaster-carr and surprisingly the vibrations were much worse than the OEM belt. I am guessing I must have a bad belt? To be honest the vibration with the OEM was minimal and the shut down shutter didn't happen until after I can hear the centrifical switch in the motor click. But with the new belt the shutter started to happen almost as soon as I shut the power off. If nothing else it is saying a belt can make a difference All this is a bit surprising because my OEM belt has a seam I can feel on the inside while the new belt appears very smooth on the inside. However I noticed the edges of the new belt are pretty ragged.

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                      • #12
                        Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

                        Originally posted by Edwood View Post
                        I put on a new belt from McMaster-carr and surprisingly the vibrations were much worse than the OEM belt. I am guessing I must have a bad belt? To be honest the vibration with the OEM was minimal and the shut down shutter didn't happen until after I can hear the centrifical switch in the motor click. But with the new belt the shutter started to happen almost as soon as I shut the power off. If nothing else it is saying a belt can make a difference All this is a bit surprising because my OEM belt has a seam I can feel on the inside while the new belt appears very smooth on the inside. However I noticed the edges of the new belt are pretty ragged.
                        This new belt shouldn't have ragged edges. I would contact McMaster-Carr to get a replacement/refund. Others on here have bought replacement belts that have helped out a lot.

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                        • #13
                          Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

                          I have a McMaster belt coming, and just ordered it to have, as I only have minor shudder right before the motor comes to a stop.

                          For grins I will try it out, as I have to clean the inside of the cabinet soon.

                          I know the nickel test doesn't stand for much, but as a reference and of course I had to run it when I got the saw to see how much better it was than the old craftsman, but the only wobble I get on the coin is that last little bit before the motor stops. Not enough to knock it down but close.

                          So really I guess my OEM belt is fine, but now I will have to compare the McMaster to see the difference.

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                          • #14
                            Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

                            I put on the Goodyear belt I got from McMaster.

                            The belt looks to be higher quality than the OEM belt. I guess I was lucky from the get go, as I hardly had any shudder at all with shutdown on the OEM, and with the new belt, maybe a little less but because I had so little to start with its hard to quantify.

                            For those that got a poorly packaged OEM there would probably be a more profound difference.

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                            • #15
                              Re: R4511 Sheaves (Pulleys) Upgrade

                              I found a local auto parts supplier that carries Gates and they can order a new belt for me for ~ $13.79 total after they make me cover the shipping. Not thrilled with that, but it beats the $19+ from elsewhere by the time shipping is factored in.

                              However, I read this thread about upgrading the pulleys and it got me thinking some on the subject.

                              I took a close look at my saw to verify rib alignment on the pulleys (easy task with the door open or off and the tilt at 45 degrees), but when shining a flashlight in there I could see bits of sawdust in the ribs. Makes me wonder if a ribbed pulley is a good idea in such an environment. Particularly if such a simple thing as changing the belt can result in a dramatic improvement, it just stands to reason that saw dust in the ribs are less than ideal.

                              This is the nicest table saw I've ever owned, so I have no reference to compare to - what kind of drive system to 'better' saws use?

                              Following with my line of thinking, I found a discussion where a guy upgraded his Steel City version of our saw to a dual v-belt setup. He spent almost $100 doing it, but the majority of that was in the fancy belts he bought. See for yourself here: http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com...ad.php?t=26355

                              In my case, I can hear the vibration of the motor, but the mass of the saw keeps it pretty rigid (no pun intended). In fact, not having a nickel handy I performed a penny test this morning - the penny moved slightly on startup but stayed upright during operation and only fell during shut down.

                              Still I'm considering an upgrade of the pulleys and want to decide on that one way or the other before I spend money on a new belt that may not work with new pulleys.

                              Anyone here with more knowledge than me on the subject that can offer up some good advice?

                              Regards,
                              Fred

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