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  • Wood!!!

    What the hell is going on here?????

    The other day I went to Home Depot to purchase some lumber for a XMAS
    project.

    I needed 1/4" plywood ....OK it's no longer 1/4" it's around 15/64"
    They had ..are you ready for this? 5.2mm plywood and that's 1.015 mm less than the 15/64 stuff!!!! AND NO cross reference in sizes!!!!
    Then to add insult to injury they had the pre-cut stuff as I did not need a full 4x8 sheet.
    I wanted a 2x4 or 24/48" pre cut piece. Well, it's now 23 3/4" by 47 3/4"

    I also needed a 3/4" dowel rod, they had them and when I returned home my 3/4" fortsner
    bit was too large!!!!!! YEP! made in china!!!!

    I recently bought the "special plywood" router bits ..you know 23/64 instead of 3/4
    But now even those are not the correct size.

    All this lumber came from china..HEY DON'T WE HAVE ANY TREES HERE ANYMORE????

    MY shoe size is 13!!! the shoes I bought are sized 13 USA, 47 Eur, 12 UK, and 29 1/2 in Japan!

    I went to ACE Hardware for some 5/16-18 stainless acorn nuts. No problem.....
    Well I had to use a metric 14mm wrench instead of the SAE I'm used to using with 5/6-18 nuts to secure it!!!!

    Finally $15.00 for a quart of paint is highway robbery! ON SALE!!!!!

    OK, I've calmed down


    Cactus Man

  • #2
    Re: Wood!!!

    And that concludes your first class in economics.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Wood!!!

      We send our trees to china now. So maybe they have the right size there.... But I’m sure the shipping cost will kill you.... I may have to check into shipping prices for American wood from china.... I feel the same way though. What is happing with everything continuing to be downsized.... It makes me mad to.....
      Power tools and accessories for man cave $5000. Wood to make things $1400. Ending up making a single cutting board for a gift…….Priceless

      Comment


      • #4
        message for Christmas

        Hope all has a Merry Christmas and get all the tools you want.
        Threefinger almost.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Wood!!!

          Get in contact with Tiger's ladys , I'm sure they can answer all your questions about wood.......you may have to pay a hefty price...

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Wood!!!

            Thirty years ago, as the last country in the world remaining on the Foot, Pound, Second (FPS) measurement system, America flubbed adopting the Metric system.

            The conversion was spread out over a couple of years so consumers and industries fought it tooth and nail. (The women with a 36, 25, 36 figure did not want to become 91, 63, 91 centimeters. Machine tool owners did not want to pay to convert the dials from inches to centimeters).

            If we were on the Metric system, we would not be having these problems.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Wood!!!

              I'm a little skeptical that women had any influence on keeping the metric system out.

              The rest of it boils down to the cost of switching and a dab of American arrogance thinking the rest of the world should be like us rather than us being like them.

              Anyone that uses math will tell you there isn't any comparison. Metric is better. Living in limbo between the two sucks.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Wood!!!

                Regardless of whether we use U.S. or ISO (metric) standards the wood products that we see would in all likelyhood still be shrinking in size. Much is the fact that every industry is squeezing the sh!t out of costs in anyway they can, but a lot has to do with the chain's buyers and the "standards" that they will except. A lot too is just sloppy quality control and this is especially so with global suppliers; especially those in the Pacific rim.

                But, I think you can still go to your local lumber yard and get a better product than what is normally offered by either Home Depot or Lowel's. And, you don't always have to pay more, either.

                Here in the Corning area we have a marvelous place called the Corning Building Company. All the lumber, ply, etc. is well sheltered and stocked and in most cases is cheaper or only pennies more than Home Depot. And, it's never damaged! I've yet to even find a split board from them and even cupping is rare. Perhaps it's the way the stock it.

                When you go to the lumber counter, they sell you what you want, hand you the paperwork and you drive into the lumber barns where there's someone to assist you... and you pick your own with his assistance.

                In the Binghamton area, there's a few places which I have yet to visit but the nearest is Belnaps. They charge more, but deliver free and if you don't like the stock they bring you more and pickup what you don't like. I haven't had the time to see if you can pick your own, but I expect you can.

                I still buy some things at the Binghamton-area Home Depot, but their stock selection is much better than here in the Corning-Painted Post area.

                So, try a local yard and I'm sure you will find better stock with better dimensioning too.

                CWS

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Wood!!!

                  Originally posted by rofl View Post
                  I'm a little skeptical that women had any influence on keeping the metric system out.

                  The rest of it boils down to the cost of switching and a dab of American arrogance thinking the rest of the world should be like us rather than us being like them.

                  Anyone that uses math will tell you there isn't any comparison. Metric is better. Living in limbo between the two sucks.
                  Actually I think the arrogance was on the part of us Brits inflicting the system on the parts of the world we colonized. More obstinance than anything else these days! The UK still uses miles for road signs, but most everything else is metric. I'm lucky, I grew up with both, so no problem living here in the US where if you want a metric tape measure, you are SOL.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Wood!!!

                    Originally posted by billmoy View Post
                    If we were on the Metric system, we would not be having these problems.
                    Sure we would. 3 centimeter wood would still be 2.5 centimeters. Just changing the numbers doesn't make the wood dealers any more honest.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Wood!!!

                      Originally posted by rofl View Post
                      Anyone that uses math will tell you there isn't any comparison. Metric is better.
                      No, no, no...NO!! There are actually some very good reasons why FPS is perfectly good, and in many many cases more convenient for people that REALLY work with the numbers. FPS didn't survive all this time because it's an inferior system, or because Americans are too dumb to adopt metric.

                      Just a couple of examples. Both metric and FPS still use the same measures of time. Sixty seconds to the minute, sixty minutes to the hour, 24 hours in a day. Time comes into play in many, many science and engineering calculations. Divide 60 by 10 (the metric system) and you get... "6". Unfortunately, "6" doesn't go into too many things very well. On the other hand, look at FPS. 12 inches to the foot, 3 feet (36 inches) to the yard. Works rather nicely with the "6's" from the time measurements. You get a lot of nice numbers that are easy to work with, like 2's and 5's.

                      Next, take a look at angular measure. A full circle is 360 degrees, a semicircle is 180 degrees. Works well with "6"... and works well with "12", "3" and "36". Not too good with 5 unfortunately. Yeah, science calcs are often in radians (1 radian = approx 57.3 degrees) ... but people "think" in degrees - anddesign in degrees. You can work in "gradians" (100 per circle)... but you very seldom find anyone that does.

                      Pressure in metric is often cited in units called pascals.... hmmmm..... how much pressure is that? Well, it's defined as a Newton (the metric unit of force) per square meter. To get an idea of how much this is, imagine that you had an average sized apple. Crush it into apple sauce. Now spread that over an area of one meter (39.37 inches) by one meter. The pressure exerted by the apple sauce is one pascal. Not much. Most engineering work done in metric uses MEGA pascals... a million apples. So now you have 6 extra zeros to deal with. On the other hand, FPS uses units that are easy to deal with... like psi, or inches of water column, or feet of water column. This water column stuff might sound odd but guess what, if you're dealing with hydraulics it is damn convenient! Feet and inches.... 12's.... work with flow rates.... in minutes and seconds.... "6's" again.

                      Or, consider that the most common mistake in math is mislocating a decimal point. It's a problem no matter what, but far more likely to go unnoticed with metric since everything is in "10s" anyway. Decimal point errors happens all the time.

                      I could go on, trust me, but you get the idea. These area all real effects.

                      Aircraft, vast majority of machine tools, development of every major modern mechanical innovation, and the crowning achievement - walking on the moon - was all done in FPS.

                      China.... metric.

                      What is more or less always true is that both work, and people like what they are used to.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Wood!!!

                        By the way, I have stopped buying so-called 1/4 plywood for anything. It used to be a full 1/4". Then it started coming out at 5.5 mm. Now a lot of it is measuring out at 4.6 to 4.8 mm. Too flimsy for anything I can think of... even cabinet backs. In addition to being low quality 3-ply junk with a luaun backside, it's too thin to even get a full countersink in. I now use 1/2 ply (actually 15/32) for cabinet backs, which is too heavy and too expensive BUT at least not cheap crap. I have a few sheets of 1/4 left and I 'm using them for templates and the like. When they're gone, I'll make my templates out of masonite... which still measures out OK and is far less expensive.

                        I did recently buy some 3/4 A-1 maple ply from my favorite hardwood supplier that actually measured out at 0.747". Was able to cut the dados using a 3/4 router bit instead of the 23/32 bit. Wonderful! USA made.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Wood!!!

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post

                          Pressure in metric is often cited in units called pascals.... hmmmm..... how much pressure is that? Well, it's defined as a Newton (the metric unit of force) per square meter. To get an idea of how much this is, imagine that you had an average sized apple. Crush it into apple sauce. Now spread that over an area of one meter (39.37 inches) by one meter. The pressure exerted by the apple sauce is one pascal. Not much. Most engineering work done in metric uses MEGA pascals... a million apples. So now you have 6 extra zeros to deal with.
                          And you are an engineer?

                          The rather straightforward method of expressing large numbers in floating point format makes this child's play.

                          Take your million apples. 1 x10^6. 1 MegaApple. Just as an example, make some Apple Pi and multiply the million apples by pi (3.142), thus giving 3.142 x 10^6, or 3.142 MegaApples. Or indeed 3.142MPa of pressure. Now let's take 1000 of these apple pies. Just add another three. 3.142 x 10^9, or 3.142 GigaApples. Easy as pie.

                          Now a question. How many inches of Mercury would that be? Or would feet or yards be more appropriate?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Wood!!!

                            Originally posted by Roadster280 View Post
                            And you are an engineer?
                            Yes, I am. And I have been doing detailed mechanical engineering calculations for 30 years, which I think gives me the right to an opinion.

                            Originally posted by Roadster280 View Post

                            The rather straightforward method of expressing large numbers in floating point format makes this child's play.

                            Take your million apples. 1 x10^6. 1 MegaApple. Just as an example, make some Apple Pi and multiply the million apples by pi (3.142), thus giving 3.142 x 10^6, or 3.142 MegaApples. Or indeed 3.142MPa of pressure. Now let's take 1000 of these apple pies. Just add another three. 3.142 x 10^9, or 3.142 GigaApples. Easy as pie.
                            Thanks for the primer on floating point. Surprise! They had that when I went to school, too! Seriously, expressing the numbers isn't the issue.

                            I use the apple analogy because most people don't have a clue how much pressure a Pascal is. Be honest... did you? Or was it just numbers? And when you have a million of them, is it all more clear or less clear?

                            But I think everyone has a feel for 145 psi. That's a megapascal, btw, 145 psi.

                            How about this example, in so far as you're an engineer. What' is the modulus of elasticity of steel? How about aluminum? Hmmm.... most engineers know from memory that the modulus for steel is approx 30x10^6 and that of aluminum is approx 10 x 10^6. Easy as pie to remember. The numbers in metric are 210 GPa for steel and 72 GPa for aluminum. Well ok... not as easy to remember but not impossible, either. Now look at the densities of these two materials. Steel... approx .3 lb/in^3. Interesting... modulus 30, density .3.... nice! How about aluminum? Density is .1 lb/in^3. Once again... modulus 10, density .1.... easy!

                            How about thermal conductivity? Steel...30 Btu/hr-ft-degF. How 'bout that! Modulus 30, thermal conductivity 30, density .3! What about aluminum? Aluminum... 100 Btu/hr-ft-degF. Hey... what do you know! Modulus 10, density .1, conductivity 100! Sure seems easy to me!

                            When you're doing real calculations, these are the sorts of relationships that make things quick and easy.

                            By the way, the density for steel in metric is 7850 kg/m^3. That of aluminum is 2700 kg/m^3. Not quite as easy to deal with, are they? You can look up the thermal values. My point is that while YOU are fumbling around with the numbers, and getting your kilos-, megas and Gigas straight... the FPS people are done and halfway through with the drawings.

                            Many people seem to think that the metric system is wonderful because of the relationshop of the "10s". My point is, once you get past the very top level, it's not much of an advantage, and there are distinct disadvantages. If you prefer metric, great - knock yourself out. But I'm not the only person that holds the dissenting opinion.

                            Originally posted by Roadster280 View Post

                            Now a question. How many inches of Mercury would that be? Or would feet or yards be more appropriate?
                            I don't have a damn idea what the conversion is without looking it up. But if you convert your MPA to a useful measure... psi... then the conversion to inches of Hg is approx. 2. Once again, easy to remember, easy to use.

                            Or are you trying to poke fun at inches of mercury or water as viable measures of pressure? Bad argument! Those units exist SOLELY because they are VERY convenient for certain classes of calculations. Maybe you don't use those calcs in your world... but they exist nonetheless.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Wood!!!

                              I don't disagree with any of your calculations (I'm not an engineer) but in the compressor industry, the metric equivalent to psi is kPa... kilopascals.. not Mega. Gauges, written instruction conversions, etc. are all done in kPa. Unless things have changed in the last few years, the API (American Petroleum Institute) also agrees with the ISO terminology... kPA.

                              But of course I'm talking only air and gas pressures.
                              CWS
                              Last edited by CWSmith; 12-19-2009, 01:22 AM.

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