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  • #31
    Re: Made in America

    Garyn, you will be buying old iron if you only want American made, there isn't any left being built now.
    info for all: http://www.hoistman.com http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/index....wwtoolinfoforu --- "I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me."

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    • #32
      Re: Made in America

      Garyn1,

      I think you are misunderstanding the problem... it is NOT that foreign companies are taking over America, it is American companies (and our government) that is moving our jobs to foreign lands, specifically China!

      The time for us to make up our minds and vote with our wallets has long passed. Read the very first few posts on this year 2000 originating thread.

      Funny the subject should pop up as I just read a business news story about an LED lighting firm looking that is located in California and is looking forward to expanding it's production in N. America.

      Apparently they've got a very good product but assembly time is about 45 minutes labor per light. Much too expensive to be competitive. They're trying to get that production time down to five minutes per unit... and with or without that, the options appear to be either Mexico or robotics!

      Makes good money for management... but not much there for the American middle class worker it seems.

      So goes the nation and the economy. So our kids are going to have to really smarten up or learn to flip hamburgers for each other.

      CWS

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      • #33
        Re: Made in America

        I didn't see this thread until it resurfaced....

        Very disturbing to me. Especially the poster that said he actively tries not to buy US made. I understand that the US has made some poor political moves that I don't like either. But I also understand that Americans have had a tremendous positive efect in the world overall. If it wasn't for the blood of AMERICANS the posts might all be written in German. If it wasn't for the hard work and much tax dollars spent by Americans during the cold war, these posts might be written in Russian. Or we all might not be here at all. I wonder how those Europeans and Canadians that are so anti-USA would like it if we sent them a monthly bill for the upkeep of that nuclear arsenal and all those military bases that keep them nice and secure? Or would they be the first to come running to the United States to protect them, since they all basically haven't spent more than token amounts on their own defense since WWII.

        So I have a certain sentiment for anyone that actively tries to not buy American... but it's not suitable for polite company.

        As for the origins of the products we buy, it is indeed a ridiculous false savings that our products are all going offshore. The notion of the "service economy" in this country is a fabrication of those that want to exploit short term profit rather than build a strong, productive economy. In my opinion, it was a dumb idea when it started to be verbalised 40 years ago and it's a dumb idea today. I sure hope our schools are teaching the kids to say, "Do you want fries with that". Because that is what they will need to know. In Chinese.

        Let's not forget that in many places, the government subsidizes the development of products, factories and indeed entire industries. The Japanese took over many industries because their government sponsored trade department, MITI, targeted those industries. The prices were low for a while, while they grew their market share and our competitive products and factories went under. When they had their position in the market entrenched, guess what... they price went up. We can't compete because we don't have the modern factories anymore and we failed to put the money into infrastructure to remain competitive. The same is going to happen with the onslaught of chinese stuff.... it won't be cheap forever. IMO, we are selling our future and building theirs every time we buy their stuff. When China becomes the next Japan, our wonderful finance types that run our companies will go to the next undeveloped third-world labor market. That is, if we still are able to afford to buy stuff, period.

        Our Government, unfortunately, has lost its way and now has no concern for anything, apparently, other than banking institutions and oil companies. So I have some choice thoughts for them to... and I share those with my elected representatives, who I will not vote for again because they aren't doing squat.

        I don't buy exclusively American. You have to be a realist. But when I possibly can, I do. It does matter to me where a product comes from. The notion that building the world economy is going to help me is crazy. It is going to help someone, but not those of us that have to work for a living. I do think that there are many cases where "Made in USA" really does mean that a product is better. Even in those cases when it doesn't mean that, to me it still means that I am investing in my chiildren's future.

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        • #34
          Re: Made in America

          "helping" third world economies increase their standard of living will not help those of us in the USA. What it will do is reduce our standard of living as theirs increases...until we are equal. When the average chinese indvidual can afford to buy a refrigerator...world economy will be more or less equal.

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          • #35
            Re: Made in America

            quote:"I suppose that I should no longer be shocked to hear my fellow Americans tout the virtues of tools made in Taiwan or China, or say they don't care where their tools are made. I personally will vote with my dollars to buy American wherever possible. As a person who makes their living in manufacturing - based in the US, I'll continue to support those like me.

            One thing to consider next time you buy that cheaper tool made somewhere else - we can't all make a living in this country by doing each others laundry. The strength of this country has been our ability to manufacture the best tools, equipment, and automobiles in the world"


            Mike, I couldn't agree with you more. I was in the Tool & Die industry from the early 1970's and watched the manufacturing industry in our country disappear over the next 25 years. Elk Grove Village, just outside of Chicago, had the largest industrial park in the world. (Centek Industrial Park). It had thousands of small and medium sized companies made up of Tool & Die, Molding, Stamping, and pattern makers. Those companies attracted Steel suppliers, Industrial businesses etc.

            The craftsmen working at these companies were proud, conscientious, precise, proud people who turned out work and products 2nd to none in the world. Today it is a virtual ghost town.

            The Japanese took about 25 years to recover from WWII, but when they did, they were a formidable competitor. As you may be aware, they manufactured some pretty good ships, planes etc. during the war. They gave us a run for our money starting in the 70's, with auto's and machinery, but it was on a level playing field. They opened our eyes to quality, but we could compete, as pricing of their products was competitive with ours.

            Then, a funny (not) thing happened in 1972. Nixon made his famous trek to China with the idea that we could open a market to sell our products. It eventually resulted in us giving them "most favored status" as a trading partner. What resulted, was a floodgate of U.S. businesses sending our technology over there to produce products at a lower cost. The result is we buy from them, as they, being a poor communist country, how could they ever buy from us?

            Our manufacturing industry died on the vine in the next 20 years. Since then we have learned nothing. We have signed agreements creating NAFTA and CAFTA.

            This has not happened in Germany, or Switzerland where they still promote quality manufacturing. Seventy percent of students still are going through apprenticeships. They protect their base.

            The politicians here have promoted our demise, and forced us to "service" jobs that pay nothing, and to convince us that government will provide for us (i.e. Health Care)

            The middle class, that had a chance to make a good living is now on life support.

            The trades that built this country are disappearing. The electricians, plumbers and carpenters don't have the issue of offshore, but when the middle class is gone, who are they going to have as customers ?

            So yep, what's ever left that says "Made in the USA", I'm going to purchase, with price being a second thought.

            Sorry for the long rant.

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            • #36
              Re: Made in America

              tierraverde, I agree with you on every point.

              Except where you say that the Japanese were on a level playing field. In fact, the Japanese playing field was and is anything but level. They are not friendly to imported American goods. In two ways. First, the government is not friendly. This has been a bone of contention between the US and Japan for a long time now. Second, and more importantly, the japanese consumer chooses not to buy our stuff, and woiuld continue to choose not to even if it was available and competitively priced. Unlike many people in the US, they know what side their bread is buttered on. The exception is the young people,... the most recent generation is attracted to many elements of western culture.

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              • #37
                Re: Made in America

                The real issue is that America has changed from a producer culture to a consumer culture. We really don't make anything anymore, at best we might assemble things from foreign-made parts, usually in overseas factories. All Americans want is cheap stuff quick and the only way to make cheap stuff is overseas.

                Don't blame the manufacturers necessarily, many of them are just trying to stay in business the only way they can. Blame the American people.

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                • #38
                  Re: Made in America

                  The real issue is that America has changed from a producer culture to a consumer culture
                  And Ronald Reagan even said this was coming years ago in a speech he made where he said we were transitioning to a service economy from a manufacturing economy.
                  "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                  John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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                  • #39
                    Re: Made in America

                    The business model.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Made in America

                      Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                      And Ronald Reagan even said this was coming years ago in a speech he made where he said we were transitioning to a service economy from a manufacturing economy.
                      And we should have stopped it then, we just didn't.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Made in America

                        Cephus,

                        Just as we have not stopped the clowns in Washington on the so-called "Health Crisis" that is a political agenda to attract the "Acorn" jerks to the polls, at the expense of every American that had values of hard work and family values.

                        This country has become complacent to the point maybe it should fall to the Socialists so we can finally look back at what we lost.

                        let the revolution begin.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Made in America

                          Originally posted by tierraverde@comcast.net View Post
                          Cephus,

                          Just as we have not stopped the clowns in Washington on the so-called "Health Crisis" that is a political agenda to attract the "Acorn" jerks to the polls, at the expense of every American that had values of hard work and family values.

                          This country has become complacent to the point maybe it should fall to the Socialists so we can finally look back at what we lost.
                          We've spent 40 years liberalizing America but good luck trying to get it back, far too many people have fallen for the idiocy that they deserve free stuff just for waking up in the morning. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats stand for fiscal responsibility, hard work or personal responsibility anymore, you've got no choice when it comes to actual conservatism. It's an entirely dead issue.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Made in America

                            Originally posted by Cephus View Post
                            The real issue is that America has changed from a producer culture to a consumer culture. We really don't make anything anymore, at best we might assemble things from foreign-made parts, usually in overseas factories. All Americans want is cheap stuff quick and the only way to make cheap stuff is overseas.

                            Don't blame the manufacturers necessarily, many of them are just trying to stay in business the only way they can. Blame the American people.
                            I'm not so sure that you can blame the American people, which I assume you mean the average Joe that in most cases is liveing below a middle income and struggleing to keep their head above water while CEO's are takeing home record salaries and bonuses. I put the blame on our Goverment which seems to be influenced by the filthy rich and big bussiness.
                            Last edited by Woodchuck1957; 09-07-2010, 10:14 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Made in America

                              Woodchuck,

                              I totally agree. There have been many, many cases where the consumer simply has no choice and certainly management doesn't consult with the workforce.

                              Just one early example, IIRC, was Westinghouse, who had a very productive plant in either Oregon or Washington state. At that particular plant they made electric clothes irons. They were well built, heavy (as most all homemakers preferred) and they worked very well and lasted a long time. The product was popular, sales were excellent, and the employees made good wages, and the plant was quite profitable.

                              Westinghouse, closed the plant, laid off the workers and built a facility south of the border to make a much lighter, plastic unit with a sheet metal iron base. Then they set about a commercial campaing to hawk their new lightweight as the "better" way to go.

                              Very few people liked this cheaply made iron and they lost market share almost immediately. Only problem was that the rest of the business saw the opportunity to lower their material and a labor costs and within a short time, the clothes iron that American's loved was simply NOT available.

                              Over my adult lifetime, this has happened again and again with American Industry. And, it is NOT the American consumer that it pushing this move... it is the American manufacturer who out of nothing more than greed has pushed for lower costs in order to gain wider profit margins.

                              I spent most of my professional life working for one of the world's largest compressor manufacturers. Over the last two decades that company has pushed hard to move it's manufacturing both out of America and Europe and to China and India. They stil have facilities here in America, but too much of the work is done in Asia.

                              The real "kicker" to that it that quality is far less and to go along with that, my contacts and relationships with sales engineers working in Australia, China, Singapore and Malasia all have the same theme.... the Asian market wants MADE IN AMERICA... as the quality is much better. But, the company management goes through a bit of "marketing" to convince those Asian buyers that they're getting what they want, but really, they aren't... the stuff comes from India and China and is often only partially engineered or assembled here.

                              One must be careful when buying and perhaps be a bit wise too. Much of what we think is "American" is simply NOT. The manufacturers' mislable or purposely are vague or non-descript about the country of origin. The government use to regulate that, but like so many other things, corporate and industry lobby has largely "loosened" those requirements.

                              CWS

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                              • #45
                                Re: Made in America

                                I'd like to throw in another example, Delta Machinery. Last year I bought a Delta 50-760 dust collector, I bought it new and paid the average price. Anyway, the motor is a 115V/230V motor. I wanted to wire it over to 230V because thats what my previous dust collector was and I wanted to use the same outlet. Here to find out the switch that comes with the DC is only a 115V. In order for me to switch it over I needed to purchase the 230V switch from Delta or void the warrantee. Delta wanted $30 plus shipping for a small keyed toggle switch that was probably made in the same factory in China as a Grizzly $10 switch. Then theres the Biesemeyer removeable splitter at $180, I find that rediculously outrageous, and really can't imagine many being sold. Not that I've ever been a fan of Grizzly, but I have lost alot of confidence in Delta, their latest scam is to relabel and repaint some DeWalt machinery and call it their new Porter-Cable innovations, infact the new Poter-Cable stationary table saw ( on wheels ) looks very suspiciously close to the Hitachi. Shame on Delta, what a way to ruin a long time American Icon. I'm glad that I really don't need anymore equipment, if the day comes that I think I do, I'll be looking for used American made.
                                Last edited by Woodchuck1957; 09-07-2010, 11:33 AM.

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