But it's like Ford versus Chevy regarding Drums versus sectionals.
I think I'm going to go over and parachute in on that thread.
The Plumbers Union was really hard after me and our family business, but in the end it just wasn't for me for many reasons, and some of it was Political. If I'm going to work for a Union, I want to feel as though I have a "say" like the man standing next to me has the same equal say as I do. The only other benefit I saw with the Union, that I won't have being self employed is..a killer retirement plan, but I'm ok with that. But some of my theories were confirmed when my best buddy went into the Plumbing Union here in Philly. Here is a guy who is a staunch conservative, and he had to keep his mouth shut because the Unions are Pro Democrat, and he feared losing his job over it. That's not right Frank...we shouldn't live in fear in this country. When I go to work every day I want to feel as though I have my dignity still intact when I come home at the end of the day, and I didn't feel the Union was the best place for me personally regarding that.
My blinders have been off for many years regarding the Unions, and they are NOT the only working American's in this country. When I see Obama talking about jobs...he always says "bridges and roads, and green energy jobs etc". Who exactly is Obama talking too when he says that? He's talking to the Unions...well what about those in this country that are not Union? Does he not care about the non-union people?
We both simply don't see eye to eye on Unions and we never will either. I don't need an organization to represent me and my interests to speak on my behalf, as I can do that on my own without a Union Boss. As John Gotti would say..."I'm the Boss of this family".
Unfortunatley part of this is not even knowing your father due to so many broken homes in todays society.And just everyday things that were passed on from father to son for generations are now not done.
erm. this thread went all sorts of places
First; I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's a smart guy and very talented in a lot of ways.
Second; I am a member of the generation you're bitching about. piss off. We were force-fed a BS line about going to college if we want to be anything in life. A college education costs more than my first house did, I paid my way until I realized it was a waste of time and resources. A chance offer to be a plumbers helper nearly 10 years ago now, and the ripe old age of 19 gave me everything college could and more. Guess what? No debt. Now you've got college educated adults with no skills and no job prospects. and they Cannot afford to take an $8 an hour job with their student loans now due, have to have a place to live, and they sure as hell don't want to have to move back in with their parents. Oh they also have to be able to get to their hypothetical job each day, Now they either have a car payment, or they buy something without payments, and get to try to keep it on the road. Consider that when you complain that these kids want to start at a decent wage without knowing anything.
Third; Unions have outlived their usefulness, Because they have become a political machine rather than a means of protecting the well being of it's members. They gained too much power and become a corrupt institution, let them die.
Fourth; Those illegals that are stealing work from you? someone is hiring them, if you want to turn those Unions back into something other than a relic how about lobbying for better enforcement of immigration and tax laws.
I think i'm done for the moment, I just saw enough biased opinion and vitriol that I thought I'd toss my own into the hat.
The US hosts foreign auto plants owned by Honda, Toyota, Mtsubishi, Subaru-Isuzu, Nissan, BMW and Mercedes. No foreign auto assembly plants are unionized. They workers control the issue, and they have not supported unionization. This is despite the reputation that some of these employers, particularly the Japanese, have for being very demanding employers.
NUMMI, the joint venture assembly plant between Toyota and GM, was unionized, but recently folded. That plant was not far from here. Those people - lots of people - lost their jobs. The city and state lost tax revenue. Was it due to the union? I don't know. I think the union didn't help.
The foreign-owned plants are making money. We all know about the problems GM and Chrysler have had. Certainly the problems have been significantly due to mismanagement and poor product roadmaps. But it's also true that pension funds and healthcare benefits demanded by unions caused a good portion of the financial problems faced by the US automakers.
If the workers in the foreign owned plants don't want unions, why exactly would we think that unions are needed? Laws protecting the employees right to unionize are on the books. Workers could organize if they felt it was in their best interest, but they're not doing so.
It's not always about the contract. Unions tend to like to compartmentalize jobs and establish turf boundaries. You have to be a certain union class to operate certain equipment or do certain tasks. That's inconsistent with modern factory operations, which rely on versatility and flexibility of the the workforce.
I don't want to get into the emotional arguments, but it seems to me that here in 2011, unions are an impediment to job creation and another argument for offshoring production. I have a conceptual problem with the idea that a company can invest hundreds of millions in a factory, then be forced to negotiate with a group that has established a monopoly on the labor needed to operate the factory. Monopolies distort supply and demand, because they give a very big stick to the holder of the monopoly. This is a problem, no? If the union makes an unreasonable demand, is the company not between a rock and a hard place? This has happened to US companies many times and I see no reason why it wouldn't happen again.
Seems to me to make more sense for the the (labor) supply and (company) demand to work freely to establish the going rates for labor. If workers can get a better deal down the road, shouldn't they just head down the road? If companies want to retain their workers, shouldn't they have to improve pay and benefits? So, as I see it, at this point Unions are in essence a monopoly on labor that distorts supply and demand and thus is not really in the best interests of the economy.
Just my opinion, based on supply and demand.
Last edited by Andy_M; 07-13-2011 at 02:17 PM.
No emotional argument from this strong Union supporter. I think if we are going to apply supply and demand to the conversation the slave wages of the third world will always win out even against our minimum wages. While we are discussing factory operations and things that impede operations and profits, lets factor in the absense of worker safety in the form of our government's OSHA, and environmental protectional (The EPA) both of which are nonexistent elsewhere. To be truly competitive we must be willing to pay our workers the same or less than their third world counterparts, we must also be willing to throw worker safety and environmental protection out the window. I say this without emotion, just what I believe supply and demand warrants if we are to compete. In response to the comment of Unions becoming a political machine, if Unions did not back political candidates and use the same tools as corporations the end which we are about to experience would have come a lot sooner in my opinion.